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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-19-2007 09:15 AM
teflon_jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by pescaphile
7X is Trico tippet. I couldn't imagine using it with a 3" streamer, let alone one with a bead head.
Well, it works so I'm not messing with it. I usually catch fish when nobody else does so I must be doing something right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsmithii
i must agree. general rule, size of fly divided by 3 to get preferred tippet size. also length of dry fly leader is longer than wets and streamers. must be very spooky fish
The Swift has the spookiest fish you've ever seen. If they made 10X tippet it still wouldn't be thin enough. And the Housatonic and Deerfield fish are no dummies either.
03-16-2007 06:22 PM
jlsmithii pescaphile, i believe we are saying the same thing then, just misunderstanding each other's terminology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pescaphile
7X is Trico tippet. I couldn't imagine using it with a 3" streamer, let alone one with a bead head.
i must agree. general rule, size of fly divided by 3 to get preferred tippet size. also length of dry fly leader is longer than wets and streamers. must be very spooky fish
03-16-2007 05:28 AM
pescaphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by teflon_jones
I'm primarily a streamer fisherman, and I usually throw big stuff ~3" minimum or else a bead head bugger.
7X is Trico tippet. I couldn't imagine using it with a 3" streamer, let alone one with a bead head.
03-16-2007 05:19 AM
pescaphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsmithii
explain how it is the width and not the arbor size. (arbor size being reel arbor + line on reel diameter).

the width of the reel is constant as made by the factory.
I think some the confusion stems from terminology. What you're calling the arbor, I'm calling a spool of line. The arbor is just the inner part of the spool, basically a shaft or tube, where the backing is attached.

I was trying to say that the drag will increase less on a wider reel than it will on a narrower reel as line is removed. This is because its diameter (spool + line) changes less because the volume of line removed from the either reel is the same. Since the spool of the narrower reel is of less width, the depth of the line removed (decrease in radius) must be greater than it would be on a wider reel to remove an equal volume of line; thus, the diameter decreases (drag increases) faster than on the wider-spool reel.

The diameter of the arbor doesn't matter all of this -only the outer diameter of the spooled line. The drag on a large-arbor reel will decrease just as fast as on a conventional reel of the same diameter. It's a difference in spool width that makes drag change less, not arbor diameter. It doesn't matter what's underneath because it is only the outer diameter of the spooled line that is involved in the mechanics.
03-15-2007 08:34 PM
teflon_jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dble Haul
I'm curious, why do you use a 7X tippet for smallmouth? Are they incidental catches while trout or salmon fishing with 7X tippet?
I use 7x for everything in rivers/streams because then I'm always fishing with the smallest tippet possible and basically I'm hitting the lowest common denominator. I use the same flies for most freshwater species, so if I used larger tippet for the smallmouth then I might spook the generally more leader shy salmon or trout when I throw them the same fly.

I'm primarily a streamer fisherman, and I usually throw big stuff ~3" minimum or else a bead head bugger. I could use bigger tippet, but I use a full flex 4 wt rod so it protects light tippets extremely well. On my last trip to Grand Lake Stream I pulled in a 19" salmon and a couple of smallmouth in the 4 lb range on 7X. So I figure why risk spooking the fish with a bigger tippet if 7X works?

A side benefit of this is that when I switch to a dry fly I already have on the right leader. Dry fly fishing it definitely my favorite way to catch a fish, so I'm guaranteed to be tying one on a few times a day.
03-15-2007 08:25 PM
jlsmithii
Quote:
Originally Posted by pescaphile

However, the size of the reel's arbor has nothing to do with how this changes. In actuality, it is just the width of the spool that makes the difference.
explain how it is the width and not the arbor size. (arbor size being reel arbor + line on reel diameter).

the width of the reel is constant as made by the factory.
03-15-2007 08:25 PM
jlsmithii
Quote:
Originally Posted by pescaphile

However, the size of the reel's arbor has nothing to do with how this changes. In actuality, it is just the width of the spool that makes the difference.
explain how it is the width and not the arbor size. (arbor size being reel arbor + line on reel diameter).

the width of the reel is constant as made by the factory.
03-14-2007 09:55 PM
pescaphile jlsmithii:

Yes, you're absolutely right that the drag applied by a reel increases as line is removed. This is because the torque required to make the drag slip is constant. So as the lever arm (diameter of the spooled line) decreases due to line being removed, the line tension must increase to apply the same amount of torque that is necessary
to make the drag slip.

However, the size of the reel's arbor has nothing to do with how this changes. In actuality, it is just the width of the spool that makes the difference.
03-14-2007 09:48 PM
pescaphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie
I think that when people refer to "start up drag" or "start up inertia" they are really talking about stiction. That is, the slight increase in drag friction as the spool begins to turn. I can feel it in some very fine reels, but in practice, a reel would have to really suck for this to be an issue since we usually fish with drags that are light compaired to the breaking strength of the tippets. I think it is mostly an issue in the shop. For instance, all my Islanders (and every one that I have seen) have had slightly more stiction than my Abels or Tibors (draw bar/cork drags). I've never noticed a problem while fishing.
Eddie:

Yes. Static friction (stiction is not a word despite what you'll find on the web that may be changing though as it is used more) is what people are incorrectly calling "startup inertia".

You have it backwards about the friction on the drag surface for the moving versdus stationary spool though. There is a decrease in friction when the spool begines to turn -not an increase. Static friction always exceeds dynamic friction. If you look up a table of coefficients of friction for various material in contact with other materials, you'll see that the dynamic friction coefficients are less. With a good drag, the static friction will be close to the dynamic friction and as a result the lines comes out smoothly.

With a bad or poorly-maintained drag, the static friction is so great that a relatively large amount of torque (leading to friction on the drag surface) is required to cause the spool to begin turning which is followed by the spool spinning rapidly and then stopping and restarting again. You'll see the rod actually throb as the spool starts then stops then starts, etc, repeatedly.
03-14-2007 08:52 PM
jlsmithii
Quote:
Originally Posted by juro

I assumed you were looking for a SW reel because I saw the 3.5" stats.

juro, not necessarily, just looking for some good conversation. just happened to pick the 3.5 stats because that was a line weight that i could compare a SA to MA to LA reel.

as for the drag question pescaphile, consider this:

Fish takes your fly and starts to run, he runs at a constant speed for 125 yards

at the start of the run, your spool (given a standard arbor) is lets say 4 inches in diameter, thats 12.56 inches in circumference, or there abouts (keep the math simple)

as that fish pulls line the diameter of the spool decreases as your backing leaves it

after the fish is lets say 140 feet away, lets assume the diameter of the spool, the outter most wrap of backing now measures 3 inches, a one inch reduction in diameter, now a circumference of 7.065 inches just over half of what we started with

OK,Wheres his point

remember, the fish is pulling at a constant speed, since the diameter is decreasing, the spools speed must increase, dramatically as I hope I have illustrated, so a 1 inch reduction almost doubles the spool speed, and drag pressure is directly related to spool speed, so to sum that up, the further the fish runs the more drag your reel applies

with a large arbor, the reduction is MUCH less, and not only less in inches, less percentage, while a standard arbor will "shrink" nearly 90% as a fish runs, A large arbor is only gonna shrink 20% of the original diamater

thus the spool speed on a large arbor stays MUCH more constant during the run of a fish than a standard, and thusly the drag pressure is more unifrom

DISCLAIMER: All the stats in this are poorly researched at best, and most of them are just plain made up

It is my understanding that this was one of the primary considerations when LA's first where developed, but it was so hard to explain i marketing, they just pushed some of it's other benefits

i think this is the point that juro was making about hard running fish in his first post. Like i mentioned earlier, for sweetwater, in my experience, most fish will not get into your backing and therefore the original question; is a properly spooled SA essentially a LA?
03-14-2007 06:10 PM
Eddie I think that when people refer to "start up drag" or "start up inertia" they are really talking about stiction. That is, the slight increase in drag friction as the spool begins to turn. I can feel it in some very fine reels, but in practice, a reel would have to really suck for this to be an issue since we usually fish with drags that are light compaired to the breaking strength of the tippets. I think it is mostly an issue in the shop. For instance, all my Islanders (and every one that I have seen) have had slightly more stiction than my Abels or Tibors (draw bar/cork drags). I've never noticed a problem while fishing.
03-14-2007 04:35 PM
Colorado Cajun I think you should get a Mid Arbor since you cant decide between small and Large. Split the difference.
03-14-2007 04:32 PM
Dble Haul
Quote:
Originally Posted by teflon_jones

Startup drag was a secondary consideration since I usually use a 7X tippet, even for smallmouth and salmon.
I'm curious, why do you use a 7X tippet for smallmouth? Are they incidental catches while trout or salmon fishing with 7X tippet?
03-14-2007 03:06 PM
pescaphile
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtloon
. . . Because the spool radius is in effect the lever arm the fish uses to start the spool turning (and the drag dragging), the large and very-large arbor designs allow for a smoother drag initiation, so they are progressively more desirable with fish that accelerate rapidly (and hard) to a higher speed. i.e. bones, tarpon, albies.
Why do you say this? A larger lever arm means the resisting torque of the drag must be greater than a smaller diameter spool to achieve the same resistance (drag) on the line. So for two reels having the same drag system but one being conventional and one being LA design, I'd think that the conventional reel should have a smoother startup because it's drag does not need to be clamped down as hard (greater friction is required to achieve the necessary greater torque) to achieve the same resisting force on the line.

By the way, startup inertia is the same as the inertia when the spool is spinning. I know it's a commonly-used term in the industry, but it's a peeve of mine (grain weight is another). The correct term would be startup torque. With respect to inertia, actually the moment of inertia, a larger diameter spool will have more mass concentrated further from it's spindle and thus be less be more resistant to starting up (accelerating) per Newton's second law.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but simply saying that because the lever arm is greater doesn't explain your claim that drag initiation would be smoother. Could you elaborate?
03-14-2007 09:28 AM
teflon_jones I just bought a large arbor simply because of the ability to pick up more line quickly. It's a Orvis Battenkill 3/4 for my current 4 weight, and another 4 or 5 weight that I hope to pick up at the Bear's Den later today.

Startup drag was a secondary consideration since I usually use a 7X tippet, even for smallmouth and salmon.
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