Stop Steelies, Browns Salmon Stocking? - Page 3 - Fly Fishing Forum
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  #31  
Old 12-27-2002, 02:46 PM
DEERHAAWK DEERHAAWK is offline
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Good Debate!

Good day,
I have a computer, powered by electricty from Bonniville. I have a car, and drive most days. I eat, don't drink beer, shower, etc, etc.
I was not around when society enacted these things, but I am working with what I have to make my use of them as proficiently as possible, as I hope each one of you are. But I care not to make this subject a pi**ing contest, for it is far to important for that!
I will use Bonniville as an example. I have visited the facility many times, walked through it , walked around it, I visit the hatchery there frequently, talk to the people involved, listen to there sides, seen the efects, good and bad, first hand. I have come to the conclusion that at this particular time, at this site, things CAN be made better! I look carefully at where I can best be a product of change, and make my stand.
Because it's NOT just about me. It's about the FUTURE! If you came across a car rolling towards a group of un-suspecting kids, would you try to stop it?, or just say "nothin I can do, just another one of societys problems, damn cars anyway" Well, this "derilict" auto of screwing with waterways and fish stocks is headed smack towards the future of flyfishers everywhere! And it's the look on there faces, when they dont see anyone trying to stop this, that scares me. Why would you NOT want to be a part of change for the better, whatever the cost? If a different waterway in a different area is your passion, then help that one, cause the bottom line is, THEY CAN ALL BE HELPED, THEY ALL NEED HELP! Work to make them better.
Gentlemen and women, this diolouge is the key ingredient! We need to discuss this, we need to tell others. We need to loose this apathetic attitude of "Ho Hum, Whatever".
I grew up in the great state of Ma. I always wondered why there were stone walls out in the middle of the woods. Found out the reason later in life. But what amazed me most, was how Nature bounced back! Mabye not to Historical standards, but 1000 % better than a raped landscape. Because its the Natural way, we have an obligation to do what we can to see it as close to that end as possible. Help. Each persons action, however small or large, contributes to a possitive end.
I cant tell you how gratefull I am for each one of you here at FFF, as I said before, we are the great forward thinkers!
I remain your friend in fish...
Deerhawk
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2002, 04:46 PM
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Juro,

Quote:
Inland's post boils down to (1) citing yet another of man's failed attempts at playing God with nature and (2) if we live within modern lifestyles then we can be of no use in benefiting the state of our natural resources whatsoever.
1) The example given was to point out the extreme difficulty to undo. Now that man has messed up the GL's (and everywhere in between), how are we going to undo the messups? Now that new life has firmly entrenched itself into the lakes, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of it. The natural balance is gone. Go ahead and stop stocking the lakes. I have no problem with that, but how is that going to get rid of the now naturally reproducing populations of fish (et. all) that don't belong? How do those species interfere with the natives? When we can figure that out, then maybe there will be a viable plan to execute it. "Just Do It" is the easy part.

2) I did not say we could be of no use. Even while we may take the time to help out the environment (through stream cleanings, habitat restorations, etc) what are we doing on the other end of the candle?

You draw a line in the sand and say "No, you are not getting this stand of trees. No dams will be built here. No more salmon will be netted here". Are the people that cut the trees the evil ones? Is it the evil logging companies? Is it the evil power companies? Or how about the evil commercial fishing fleet? Or is it maybe our evil society that creates the demand for such goods so that people go through the trouble to get them? Don't get me wrong here, all of the above have done their share of marketing to help create that demand by providing the goods cheap. But, now that our society expects such items highly available and cheap, how do you go about changing that? Simple answer- raise the price to pay for the true cost (low impact with sustainability) of getting such goods to the local market or lumber yard. Hard answer- are the masses willing to pay for it? I think we both know that sooner or later, we ARE ALL going to pay for it.

In the end, I think we should spend our energies (and $$$'s) on projects that have a realistic chance at success.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2002, 07:28 AM
BobK BobK is offline
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Talking Making My Position Clear

Look, guys, I will try to clarify my position.

1. I would have NO objections to running appropriate feasibility studies to determine what can be done with today's technology to clean up the mess of the last 300 years. This should be overseen by a non-partisan group of citizens (the "jury of peers" concept).

2. As the final part of this study, a COST ESTIMATE should be prepared for the "Purchasers" (The government - in reality, all of us) so we will know the cost, and do our own cost/benefit analysis.

3. At this point, a plan and time schedule for implementation of what can be done can be established.

The non-partisan citizens group should consist of "users", that is recreational, swimmers, boaters, fishermen (NOT JUST TROUT), commercial (shipping), etc. - and any RESIDENT taxpayer, water drinker and toilet flusher wishing to participate.

My problem is that the proposal is a mandate - not understanding IF or WHEN these things can be done. (I personally would like to see this long range goal accomplished - IF IT CAN BE DONE!)

BobK
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2002, 01:17 PM
DEERHAAWK DEERHAAWK is offline
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NEXT STEP

Good Day,
Excelent debate, Excelent! Now it is time for FFF to put together a point plan for this direction that T.U. is taking towards the G/L's future, if we chose. Can we get a hard copy of T.U's direction? Can it be posted here for all interested parties. I am sure that T.U is looking for input on this, a chance is here for FFF to help as a collective body. We have all brought up some great ideas, now it needs to go to the next step! Lets do this
Moderator, where do we go from here?
Deerhawk
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2002, 02:50 PM
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Lipripper Lipripper is offline
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I tried to get a statement out of TU by emailing them and asking for a reaction/position to the initial post. I have yet to hear from them. I am wondering if this may be a local chapter issue that is being explored. Either way, the only thing I have found on the subject is this post and BobK's link. Anyone have any more detailed information?
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2002, 09:16 PM
BobK BobK is offline
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Smile Hey, Lipripper -

Go back to the www.lakeontario.org website, and get to the "reports" section. Find the thread headed by Capt. Snowshoe. Send him a "u2u" mail (that site's internal mail), give him your e-mail address, and he will be happy to send you a copy of the draft as an e-mail attachment. (that's how I got mine) It is entitled -

Great Lakes Action Agenda
Habitat and Biodiversity Section:
Native Fish Populations
December 2002

I don't have the computer savvy or I would have posted it on this site -

(Just a quick sort-of-related question for us all to ponder - when we stock original species, can they REALLY be considered "natives"?)

BobK
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  #37  
Old 01-02-2003, 10:36 AM
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From The Horse's Mouth

Here ya go.

I am a native Michigander and a member of TU.* I have recently heard a rumor
with regards to our native/exotic fish population and am curious to find out if
there is any truth to it.* Here is the statement...

"I just heard about a draft being circulated by "our friend", TU.
Basically, they have "joined up" with Great Lakes United to put pressure on
senators, congressmen, etc. to try to restore the Great Lakes to their pristine
state, and original fish species. A "quickie" sketch of what they want to do is:
1. Stop stocking exotics (e.g. Pac. salmon.Steelhead, Browns, etc.)
2. Restore original fish (lakers, burbot, sculpin, coastal brookies, yellow
perch, bloaters, etc.)
3. Amend existing law to prevent introduction of "exotics" (salmon, steel and
browns, etc.)
4. Make it federal mandate so that State agencies must comply."

Any truth to this statement?* Thanks for any help.

John

Response (Joe McGurrin) - 01/02/2003 08:20 AM
No truth in the rumor. We've never heard of any draft being circulated. If such
a document exists, it isn't part of any existing TU policy or any being
considered. Only official policy involving TU and Great Lakes United is* a joint
resolution that supports a Great Lakes Fishery Commission plan to restore native
"coaster" brook trout in Lake Superior that was distributed over 3 years ago.
Neither the resolution nor the plan contained any of the 4 statements listed
above or any statements at all about introduced fish species.


Lets not turn this forum into a gossip outlet for conspiracy theories about TU please.


LR
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  #38  
Old 01-02-2003, 02:03 PM
DEERHAAWK DEERHAAWK is offline
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Theories

Lip,
I knew someone would have the inside line on this. Thanks.
My lesson learned, look before you lea.. ah, speak.
Deerhawk
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  #39  
Old 01-02-2003, 02:29 PM
BobK BobK is offline
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Smile Hopefully

I hope you are right. The draft document that I have, dated December 2002, essentially states the position I outlined exactly.
Maybe GLU is going to push this alone.
I will attend the meeting in Rochester NY where the NYSDEC will be presenting current proposals, and looking for input.
BobK
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2003, 10:43 AM
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pmflyfisher pmflyfisher is offline
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I have avoided viewing this thread since my last post since I did not want to raise my already high blood pressure and ruin the remaining holiday period.

I have not read all of the above posts either but will wait to see what the real truth objectives scope, etc... are. I am sure these theratical fishery doctorates do not have any idea of the costs, environmental, and socio economical issues which a high risk comlex project like this starts. Would love to see their probability of success factor and time frames etc..

You can see where I am on this subject from my original post.

Having fished the great lakes fishery for the last 23 years which is a very healthy fishery to date which provides a great commercial and recreational sport fishery for US and canadians to put it at risk for a high cost and risk project does not appear prudent to me given all of our NA fisheries in trouble that could use the resources that would be expended on such a massive project such as this one.

Bob K will wait to see the TU proposal, I checked their web site and the last copy of the magazine but did not see any new projects that fit the profile of this one.

I am now going back to fly tying for the forumn shows and other fly swaps I am in where my blood pressure will be under control.




PM Out
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  #41  
Old 01-09-2003, 05:15 AM
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Hal,

Read LR's post, just a couple yours.

Every couple of years some one brings this up. Funny thing is they can't get rid of the gobies, zebras, and a water flea. It will be pretty hard to rid the lakes of all salmonids and start fresh. Think of the lobby $$ behind SU, they would fight that tooth and nail.
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  #42  
Old 01-09-2003, 06:33 AM
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Smile mjyp

You neglected to mention lampreys and quagga mussels (a deep water relative of zebras, but NOT effected by the latest favored poison method). A poison shows promise for zebras, but needs further work to:
a. produce commercially and in quantity;
b. see what effects it has on other species;
c. make sure it (or a derivative) works effectively on ONLY zebras AND NOTHING ELSE!

BobK
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  #43  
Old 01-09-2003, 07:53 AM
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I also forgot to mention alewives, and the worst invader of all.....

Man!!!
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  #44  
Old 01-09-2003, 08:32 AM
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pmflyfisher pmflyfisher is offline
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GLs colleagues

All of I have to say on this one is that I have worked on complex international corporate projects my whole career, (whether I liked or not) but taking on such a complex high risk project as this one
which has very questionable tangible and intangible benefits is one project I would run away from him if assigned to.

Note, I did not run to Canada during Vietnam but enlisted and served so that should tell you something about my character and willingness to take reasonable risks when needed.

PM Out

P.S. Can't wait to see this studys risk evaluation and tangible/intangible benefits to society.
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  #45  
Old 01-09-2003, 09:50 AM
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You mean mans benefits to society?
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