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Stripers and Coastal Gamefish Stripers, Blues, Inshore tuna!

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  #16  
Old 09-20-2002, 06:40 AM
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Good topic.

At the risk of being controversial however. ..

Watching lots of people play fish of various types in various parts of the world, I am willing to bet that most flyrodders exert about one tenth of the pressure they believe thay are when playing fish - irrespective of the rod / tippet combination. Maximum pressure is achieved with the tip pointed at the fish. It doesn't matter wether the rod is lifted straight up, sideways or inverted - as the pressure point travels out toward the tip of the rod from the butt, the resultant force for a given 'pull' is reduced. Sideways action will put the force on a different plane and helps pull a fish off balance which does speed up the process.

It sounds counterintuitive but physics is physics. If you do the tests with a spring balance and a friend, you'll be very surprised. Its a good exercise to go through with different tippets. Wether fishing 12lb tippet for skinny water bonefish or 7X for trout, knowing what max. pressure really FEELs like will help you get the job done a lot faster.

This may be a fun thing to set up at the next casting clave.
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2002, 06:45 AM
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Rods are the key

Use 10 wt's for effective catch and release...There are people out there striper fishing with 7 wt's..
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2002, 07:23 AM
Roop Roop is offline
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All good points, especially the angle of the rod.

When I've been stuck on the bottom and decided I was going to lose my fly, I resort to pointing the rod straight at the target and backing up the beach.... it's amazing how much pressure a tippet can actually take.

Adrian's right, we all should try it.

One additional point that I found with my BFT set up: casting with a 25# butt section and a 40, 50 or 60# tippet is not difficult at all. Of course it may be a factor of the 420 grain floating head I'm using but another tactic you may want to try.

Roop
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  #19  
Old 09-23-2002, 01:16 PM
OC OC is offline
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I'll agree with Adrian that a lot of fly fishers only exert about 1/10th of what they can on a Fly rod. If your knots are good just take a 8 to 10 wt out in the yard with 8 lb leader and see if you can break it using the rod as a lever. I get nervous that the rod will break first. There may be other factors why a leader will break than strength. I've noticed most line breakage on a large fish happens when a sulking hooked fish decides to make a run. The line breaks right at the very begining of the run just as rod tip resonds to the fish. It usually happens also if I didn't respond instantlly with getting my reel hand away from reel and I mean instantlly. The break is clean with no fray or marks so I thought line just broke because it was not strong enough. What I noticed after a lot of years is line breaks about 3 to 5 inches from where hook is tied on. I've begun to wonder if leader may have hit back of gill plate as fished turned to run. Breaks also happen when a fish is directly below you when fishing out of a boat and fish turns for that last desperate run. Again the break is usually clean with no frays in leader. Next time you keep a striper or other large game fish just take some leader material in both hands and run it hard upwards along the back of the gill plate and see what a perfect break you get. You will swear that the leader looks as if it just broke because it was not strong enough, there are no fray marks just a clean break.
If you need to use lighter leader so as not spook a fish then do so and don't be afraid to horse the fish in just make sure you reaction time is as fast or faster than the fish to respond to his moves. That rod you are using is a great equalizer and if you don't believe so take it out in the yard and try and break the leader even with your hand holding your fly line just in front of the reel. You will be amazed how hard it is to break.
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  #20  
Old 09-23-2002, 02:46 PM
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I fish with 8wt rod and use a 12lb leader. Here is my conclusion.

You can put a great deal of pressure on the fish and not be to concerned the line will break. Why? I associate the amount of pressure you can put on the line when you hang up on the bottom and try to break the hook free.It takes so much pressure before the line breaks I am always surprised. The line can handle more pressure than I think or use to appling. I think we play the drag a little light to be safe.

A well tied knot and a good drag go a long way on a big fish.
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  #21  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:07 PM
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I was thinking about this a bit more driving home the other day.

I weigh about 220lb (give or take - probably give )

I was wondering how long I would last if a force equal to half, or even quarter of my body weight were applied in the opposite direction to where I wanted to go. In my case at least, the answer would be not very long!

I use 12lb and 9wt rod for most of my striper fishing where conditions allow - typically shallow water. In very strong currents and / or fishing deep with fast sinking lines I would go up to 20lb or higher and a 12 wt (I don't own a 10 or 11).

A 10lb striper hitting against a strip in a 10 knot current can apply a lot of pressure very quickly without even trying. Heavier tippet would make sense around rocky/barnacle encrusted structure.

A note on drag settings: If you anticipate a lengthy run taking you well into the backing, bear in mind that as the line peels off, the effective spool diameter is reduced. This creates a gearing effect which multiplies the efective drag considerably. I follow the Lefy Kreh maxim and use a setting of about three pounds. This happens to be the amount of drag which just enables you to pull line from the reel when jammed between dry lips. To apply pressure during the fight I palm the rim. Something else to check out with spring balances at the next casting calve
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Last edited by Adrian; 09-23-2002 at 03:19 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:11 PM
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Landed a 10# bluefish on 15# fluro and a broken in 1/2 8wt .
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  #23  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:18 PM
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Great thread! I am with Adrian on this one and I believe that most salt water flyfisherman use gear too light for what they are doing. I was fishing this weekend with a T&T Horizon 9 wt. rod and it took me forever to land an Albie that was in the 8-9 lb. range this really irked me and I immediately switched over to my 10 wt. Orvis Trident. This made a huge difference as the Orvis rod had significantly more back bone than the T&T and I caught the next Albie on the 10 wt. in alot shorter time than the previous fish. I am one who exerts alot of pressure on the fish I hook, I can say this because I broke my 4th rod on Friday in less than a year by exerting too much pressure on the fish. There is a fine line between not enough and too much pressure and I am convinced that having a rod that is suited to the quarry is of utmost importance. 7 and 8 wt. flyrods really are not suited for the fish and conditions we will encounter here in the N.E. and will over tire a fish in the process. My Orvis 9wt. Silver Label that I broke on Friday is really the lightest rod I will use now and the T&T will be relinquished to backup duty and springtime duty only. The 10 wt. is now my main weapon of choice and will see the majority of fishing that I will be doing from here on out. I use 20 lb. flouro tippet no smaller and I think that it is perfectly strong enough coupled with the right rod and should not break under the amounts of pressure that you should be able to exert with the proper rod and technique.

Just my .02 cents!!!!!
Tightlines,
Mike M.
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  #24  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:29 PM
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So many interesting views on this subject...

Personally speaking, I have never broken off a fish using 16# flouro unless it was with a flats-induced, spastic strip-set. I find that if my tippet is unabraided and my knots are good I am more worried about breaking my rod than my tippet when fighting bigger fish.

Stripers don't run that hard so I haven't found that it's much of an issue. I always go as heavy as I can get away with for both fresh and salt but have never seen a striper played to the point of exhaustion. They are incredibly hearty fish - unlike blues.

A final thing to consider is the technology behind today's reels. IMHO a smooth, well set drag can shorten the fight immensely, beginning with the initial run....

My .02

BigD
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  #25  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:43 PM
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The rod shouldn't break unless it explodes at the butt - I guess that could happen on a 7 ro 8 weight with heavy tippet. If it breaks any further towards the tip then either the blank has a weakness or the angle is excessive. I managed to blow up my third Loomis GLX 9ft 9wt on a striper of about 15lb. I landed the fish too!

A straight-line pull gives maximum pressure at the hook. Adding 10 to 20 degrees of rod angle brings the butt into play and provides a bit of cushion but you quickly get into the area of diminishing returns - more flex equalls less pressure on the fish and more pressure on the rod towards the tip.

A rod is a lever, but not the regular sort. Regular levers tend to be of uniform thickness whereas fly rods are tapered and flex more towards the tip. The tapered design translates into tip speed and is great for casting nice tight loops. But tips are useless for playing fish (unless its a 2wt on 8x tippet). If you tried to lift a 10lb weight with the 12 inches of fly rod tip it would probably break. The butt section has no problem handling that kind of stress.
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  #26  
Old 09-23-2002, 06:19 PM
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Formulation points?

Just my .02c based on quite a few years of largemouth tournament fishing. I seems that most monofilaments I have used have "magic" formulation points in their apparent breaking points or abrasion resistance. No scientific evidence but Stren Magnathin seems to transition from "thread" to "rope" between 8 and 10 lb. test. Trilene XT from "strong thread" to rope between 10 and 12 lb. test. Trilene Big Game from thread to rope between 10 and 15 lb test and again from rope to cable between 25 and 30 lb test. Standard Stren seems to be the best of all the brands at 6 lb. test but fails to compare well at other strengths. Anyone have any evidence on sweet spots in formulation on the various brands of flourocarbon?
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  #27  
Old 09-23-2002, 06:42 PM
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I bet I could land Adrian(swimming) on 20# in less than 10 minutes. With fifty pound test...I don't think that would be very sporting at all.
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  #28  
Old 09-23-2002, 07:29 PM
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Eddie, you could probably wear me down with 12lb - unless I've had a pint of Guinness! :hehe:

jfb, I can feel a series of controlled experiments coming on this winter
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  #29  
Old 09-24-2002, 07:22 AM
Tod D Tod D is offline
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Roop - great thread! Missed you Sat am, but you didn't miss anything except a beautiful moon-set over Scraggy Neck.

Terrific food for thought throughout the thread. This year I've gone almost exclusively to a set up of about 24" of 35# braided leader attached to anywhere from 3-5' of 20# flouro. I find the braided section helps turn over even the biggest flies. Went to 20# intuitively, as I favor getting the fish in quickly and putting the lumber to them. Also, Hawkeye's comment last year at the boneclave re flouro - along the lines of, if it's flouro what difference does relatively minimal changes in diameter btwn # tests make? - that really resonated with me.

Regarding field tests, I'm proud to report that I undertook a fairly rigorous battery of them over the past winter. I was able to subdue my 5-year old son w/ the above 35/20 set up. This came after multiple break offs w/ 12# flouro as he would get into my backing, then rub me off on one of the oak trees in our yard. My 3 yr old son proved to be a case in point for large arbor reels: couldn't land him as he'd run straight at me everytime.
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  #30  
Old 09-24-2002, 07:55 AM
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Tod,

Sorry I didn;t make it, the roofing project really took it's toll on me.

I strongly suggest you conduct the field testing at home in an enclosed area. I was questioned by the police for doing the same with my oldest daughter after the neigbors "claim to have witnessed" me lift her by the lip when I got her to the side of my dinghy in the side yard. Barbless hooks really make a difference in that situation!
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