Jet sleds & fly fishing? - Page 3 - Fly Fishing Forum
Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum No such thing as rainbow trout, only landlocked steelhead

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  #31  
Old 04-25-2002, 08:33 PM
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OC,

Just made a change to your setup. Let me know if it works any better for you.

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  #32  
Old 04-25-2002, 10:22 PM
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Wink

Whistler: I actually Do like getting up early

Not only will the new jet be big and fast, I'm planning on mounting my camper on it so I can sleep right on the river.
Come to think of it, offering you a free bunk in such a boat-camper is probably the only way I could drag you out on the river before the sun hits... Dawn is the prettiest part of the day. I'm telling you this because you have no other way of knowing until you actually try it one day. On the other hand, if I shared a camp with some of your more ruffiate cohorts, I'd also be a little reluctant to open my eyes until they'd all left (kinda like playing dead).
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Old 04-25-2002, 10:58 PM
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Smile

Thanks Sean,
Hope by fixing my setting you didn't create more of a monster.
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  #34  
Old 04-26-2002, 01:59 AM
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Lucky for you, I'm dog tired

Had a long tough day. Body is sore, took some pain killers and am getting ready to hit the sack. But seeing this thread eased my mind but also ticked me off by some of the replies.

I had a big spiel ready. Luckily, I went and took my shower and eased myself down. (Was a bit peeved to put it lightly). But to put it shortly, we're all ANGLERS. No body is more pure or "elite" compared to others. In fact, we're in a never ending evolution gearwise. It's funny to read (and to hear first hand) how guys complain about throwing an 8/9 wt all day. But you give those same guys the 8/9 wts I grew up using (old huge diameter fiberglass) they'd wonder how I did it. Hell, I was even doing it while I was in my teens. Angling is a sport that has evolved. Every aspect has been affected. I remember when you didn't see (and I had never heard of then) graphite rods. My first driftrod was an F85C with an ABU 6001c. It's a club compared to a new G Loomis with a small ABU UC5601C. Hell, the whole loomis/reel combo weighs as much as reel of the other alone. None of us are traditionalists. I dare say that most have a synthetic this or a synthetic that (though some of us still wear barbour/filson style jackets). Sleds are just another form of evolution. Depending on what style sled you have really dictates if it's for fly fishing or not. My sled is. Mine is designed to shoot up river and driftboat it back down. Perfect 1-2 man boat. Getting gas isn't near as bad as having to run a DB with a chaser or scooter. You have to go through process of turning cars around, and leaving gear (if you don't have a few people or scooter) unprotected. Yes, there are stretches that sleds should be kept out of. But they should not be banned or considered "bass boats". These are NOT boats for the recovering bass fisherman as someone stated. You HAVE to have alot of power. These boats need to draft virtually NO water. That's what they're designed for. Only reason you can't run a skeg is that defeats the purpose. You have boat on top of water with still 12" under the surface. I have owned DB's, cats, lake boats, saltwater boats, and sleds. Still have a sled and a cat (and looking to build another cat and upgrade to a bigger sled). I will use my sled primarily for bigger water or mouths of rivers. I stay off the upper stretches. I've fly fished from my boat. No problems.

But, to get off my highhorse (or tired horse, not sure which). I don't mean to offend anyone. Just tired of some of the things I hear from "fly fishermen". That's one of the main reasons I don't think I've converted over 100%, and probably won't. I just don't like some of the attitudes I get from elitists. You have to remember, it's not just easy gravy train fishing for "bait" fishermen. We have to work on our techniques too. Hell, most of us don't use bait as often as most of you think. I use bait maybe 15% of my time running "conventional" gear. I use jigs, plugs, and hardware most of the time. Have you ever pulled plugs? Not as easy as one thinks. Plus, drifting lures is similar to flies. You have to know your depth, speed, and total presentation. If it was so easy, they'd call it catching instead of fishing. See, I've seriously seen both ends of the coin. I've hardcored "conventional" fished for most of my life. But I've also hardcored fly fished too. I'm just tired of anyone not flinging flies as being somewhat "lower" on the pole of fishing. We've evolved over the years. Bankies, to DB's, to sleds. Sleds have been around for years, just becoming more popular. I remember seeing more and more DB's coming down the rivers. People bitched, then it's sleds. What's next? I've seen the true "driftboat" sled. A supermodified DB with pump. We need to ALL get together and ACCEPT everyone with a rod/reel as ANGLERS and just say to HELL with the "I'm a fly fisherman" or "I'm a plugger" or "I'm a drifter". It's all BS. We all use rods and reels with some sort of line. Some are more expensive then others. But what gear you have doesn't mean squat. It's how you use them.

Ok, I'm off my highhorse. Didn't get any of my points across the way I wanted. Just a vague generalization (yes, I could REALLY expand upon this).
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2002, 08:23 AM
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SH69 - your hot water tank is too big - it didn't get cold before you came back to the 'puter Just kidding buddy

to the general audience...

Seriously, I think we all might be placing more into this than is really there - from both directions. When people express their point of view or adopt guidelines for themselves it's called a free country. These are opinions and beliefs and we are all entitled to that when it comes to fishing.

Yet when people try to impose beliefs upon others, pro or con, one could consider this "elitism" and it clearly goes both ways. Saying people are wrong for having a 'traditional' philosophy for fishing with the fly is elitism in and of itself. In the 12 years I fished the PNW it was always the fly guy who took it on the chin - would anyone disagree?

I have a hard time understanding all the intolerance for those who only fish the fly by those who don't. Looking at the facts and numbers, the fly guy is the vast minority and I've always found it amusing how the majority seems threatened just because a few folks choose a different path to the river, perhaps because of fear that regulations would restrict bait or force catch and release (dear God no!), etc.

I could care less how others fish, but I choose to only flyfish and release every native. That's not elitism, even if I express my views freely on a flyfishing website. Even if I have to build a site so I can get away with it (j/k)

Stepping back and looking at the whole picture - I agree with Sinktip's philosophy that solidarity among anglers of all types is the most important goal and stands head and shoulders above all of this BS, especially when wild steelhead and salmon so desperately need all of our help as a unified community of anglers.

Yet to reach this middle ground it takes acceptance of all angler philosophies within the bounds of the law from all directions including tolerance for the fly-only minority by the angling majority. Historically there has been a lot less of that then "elitsm" from fly guys going around. I would argue that the frequent use of that word itself is an example of that intolerance.

.02

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  #36  
Old 04-26-2002, 10:11 AM
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"elitism"

I have no intolerance towards people who flyfish, for I flyfish myself. When I say "elitism" I say it to those who play "high and mighty" about fly fishing and snub all those others. I deliver in a very rich area of the state (in fact, come to find out, it's the 3rd richest city on the west coast besides two very predominant cities in California). There are ALOT of fly fishermen who live here, and once you see an open garage or put something into their house for them and see fishing gear/pictures you start to BS. Only the very few have kept a decent conversation after I said "I flyfish and conventional". Get the one up and down and they never really want to talk anymore. Some of these same guys fish some beats I know, and I've seen similar guys on rivers. Dressed to the T (which is nothing wrong with that, but I prefer to wear gear that looks comfortable as well as is comfortable). I had one guy CHASTISE me on the Satsop a few years ago because I was running a "sinktip" because it just doesn't belong in the fly fishing world. Funny thing, I was catching fish, and he wasn't. He had thousands of dollars in gear and I had my old Fenwick (use my 9-10wts for chum/kings). That is who I meant by "elitist". Those who truly believe in one way of doing things and that's it. They don't diversify, and do something because it's "tradition", though they themselves probably haven't been doing it very long themselves. I know after the infamous "movie" came out, there were TONS of these guys popping out of the woodwork buying fly gear. I remember going to the Morning Hatch buying some supplies and seeing guys buying complete setups (I mean everything from waders, vest, rods, reels, the WORKS!!!!) though they had no idea what they were fishing for nor did they have any idea what rivers to fish. I still vividly remember one guy (there were 3 different guys buying gear) saying "So where can I go fishing around here?".

Hey Juro, you think I was still hot? Oh man, you don't know my temper, that was HEAVILY laid back. I'd started blasting left and right. I actually was cooled down. If you read my post, I too want people to be ANGLERS, not this or that. Why do you think in WA state we can't get a damned thing done. It's a republican/democrat thing here. If the conventional guys try to do one thing, the fly guys ban it and say no, and vice versa. I'm in the middle road, since I truly do both. The reason there has always been a bit of disdain for flyguys is because of a lack of "compassion" on both sides. Fly fishing needs a little more room then a baitcaster. Plus it can swing in a slot alot longer due mending. You ever try drifting in a rotation when one guy slows it up? Trust me, I've been on both sides, I've come to slots I wanted to swing a fly, but only spot open was inbetween gear throwers. I just shrug it off and keep going. That's what we ALL need to do. Every time you turn around, something new is in marketplace. Be it good or bad, if it's embraced by a society in the fishing realm, then so be it. If we could all get along, then we'd probably have alot more "friendships" on the rivers.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2002, 10:12 AM
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Steelheader 69,

Juro is right about what he said. Most of the guys I know that fly fish have real respect for the good gear fishermen. At the boat launch I'd rather talk fishing with them than I would with a lot of the guys that fly fish. Do me and my friends make fun of the buba gear guys that are slobs? Sure do and love doing it. Do me and the guys I fish with make fun of all the yuppy fly fishermen who are slobs in thier own way? Yup we do and even more so. And I'm sure when you are on the river and you see some pathetic soul be he buba or yuppy you just have to have a good laugh about it.
This thread started out just as a question to the guys who fly fish and use jet boats on how the use of the jet boat has effected the Quality of thier fishing. So I'd like your thoughts on it because you jet and fly fish.
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2002, 11:59 AM
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SH69 -

As noted my comments were to a general audience and not directed at you buddy. I agree there are anglers and there are a-holes and it doesn't matter what kind of gear they are using or what they are wearing.

That guy on the Satsop is a perfect example of unwelcomed imposition. I've never been lectured as such but I would've offered for him to lead through the hole and then hit a fish behind him

I've got a hundred stories of how some of my best days FF'ing were messed up but that's non-productive. I've spent a lot of days FF'ing where people thought I was smokin' crack out there. I guess I kinda enjoy these situations. Nothing like hooking up on a bugrod in front of a doubting crowd! It always seems to change the conversation to curious questions and a much friendlier tone.

I don't think most anglers understand flyfishing, statistically speaking. I would say that at any busy outdoor store, the ratio of anglers who understand flyfishing to those who understand fishing is 85% verses 15%. Just walk into any GI Joes, Fred Meyer, Big 5, etc.

Could be totally wrong, just my .02
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  #39  
Old 04-26-2002, 12:00 PM
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Incite or Insight?

OC, thank you for starting this post I'm sure that your original intent was to gain "Insight" into the minds of your fellow board members. It appears on a few occasions you may have presented the ability to "Incite" some of us to jerk our knees a bit higher than normal hope no one received a soft tissue (or ego) injury in that action.
Personaly I have enjoyed this immensely and have through the remarks of some felt a kinship that before I did not know exsisted. My inability to befriend evryone who wanders through my world is based on well deserved case of Paranoia Pescalerosis while not fatal it has over the years made me very wary of other anglers of any ilk.
In my association with a varied and ignoble group of guys and gals that have been chasing fish up and down the west coast for the last forty years I have yey to fish with anyone who appeared to be "Elite". Except for that one guy I keep seeing in the mirror!
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  #40  
Old 04-26-2002, 01:33 PM
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Moonlight,
Thanks for the good words and your right I do like to incite a bit But sometimes I need to do that to get some stuff out that's bugging me. I know a lot of the stuff that gets to me is getting to other folks out here in the NW and the Rockie mountain area too. And it's good to see all the good folks here voice there concerns. Hope that the next time I'm up in the Sitka area and your around we can get together, I would love to see that beautiful Trawler you have.
Steelheader 69,
Just read your 2nd post and you hit it on the nose about those folks in the new money rich area. But I can't call them elleitests I can only call them a sorry bunch of men who have no life but work and need to have some type of hobby. It's unfortunate that they picked the thing that we like to do but they have infiltrated just about all the other outdoor activities also. You should see then paddle out into the surf line up in surfing with an incredible ego and an unwillingness to learn the sport the right way and that is from the ground up. I don't want to say they don't have the right to do all these things but if I was God I would make life easy for the rest of us. I personaly blame the industry for all that has happened over the last 20 some odd years. Lets face it they need everyone they can get into fly and gear fishing and they do a good job of selling. In the old days before all the glitz of TV shows sponsored by the industry and how too books a guy would go out who thought he might be interested in fishing and he would buy a cheap rod and reel for himself and his kid and they went fishing. They would try and figure things out on thier own and in doing so some would sucseed most wouldn't and give it up or just go have fun on opening day. If the guy really liked fishing he evolved his skills by going out learning by observation by failing and then hopefully slowly getting the rewards. But now a days it's not that way the industry wants your and everyone elses money and quanity is the game. We got over egotistical guys who flaunt thier names and say read my book and I'll make you an instant fishing sucsess. These guys who write this how too trash don't give a dang about how the fisherman fares if they did they wouldn't share all the info that took them years themselves to learn. Money fame Money, Yuk. With all this how too out there, newbies are skipping a whole portion of the evolution of being a good fisherman and it's showing on our lakes, rivers and bays nation wide. That old time consuming learning process brought respect for all those others that work hard at being a good fisherman but that just is not the case today. With all the industry making sure that everyone who starts fishing stays with it we are not getting the natural weeding out process that used to take place.
Another thing I noticed is in the old days when you started out you fished for the easy types of fish first and gradually you worked your way up as your skill level increased to the more big game types of fish. God now we meet fisherman that all they have ever done in fishing is cast to steelhead.
Well I feel a little better now, thanks, hope you agree.
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2002, 10:51 PM
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This is a great thread and triggered a few thoughts in me.

As far as the rich with sorry lives that go out big all at once for FF, they ususally fall away just as fast, as they do in any endeavor. The ones who evolve and develop a love for FF and the resources [as in any endeavor] are among the ones who will benefit the sport and be among the ones who strive to guide things into some direction that looks to the future. These veterans are the ones who see the problems and will see possible solutions. The problems of fewer resources and more population have no solutions that most of us find pleasing.
One of my favorite runs is a spot on the Cowlitz where steelhead never seem to hold, one of those beautiful spots that should produce but never does. I walk a mile in the dark to get to this place before the boats drift through--a sled will sometimes shoot through. I love this spot. It's always mine. The water is beautiful. The backdrop is beautiful. I've never caught a steelhead there, but to fish this beautiful spot well is a morning well spent for me. I also like to catch a fish sometimes too and go other places.
We all have complaints but we gotta live with it and do the best we can. Change is a hard but unavoidable.
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  #42  
Old 04-26-2002, 11:03 PM
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Like I said, I had a bad day.....

I have been having a hell of a time at work, and reading some of the posts just flamed me more. I do apologize, but as I said before I DID NOT let anger rule my post. If you thought I was angry, you ain't seen nothing yet.

But seriously. When I say "elitist" I mean that the same as a "red neck" fisherman. The bait guys who have a big gob of chew in their mouths, chew stains on their shits and down their boats, snagging fish left and right. "Elitist" is my term for the guys who have top notch gear, never seem to catch anything, and instruct you how to fish. Juro, I do believe I said in one of my posts above. But that guy on the Sop who was letting me know I wasn't really fly fishing since I was using a sinktip. Well, I was pounding chum after chum. I think I landed about 12-15 while he was fishing to his 0. He had the nerve to tell me I wasn't fly fishing. That's where I get my stereotype from. Guys like that. And, most gear guys are same as flyfishermen. We'll shoot the sh*t and have a good time. It's those few who think they own the whole river (which there are a TON of them out there) that ruin it for everyone.

OC, I'll say it again. Jets belong as much in fishing/flyfishing as anything else. Is it the most desired? Probably not. But depends on what boat you're using and where you're fishing. Now, fishing salt flux you bet your ass they're great for fly fishing. I've spent many days on the mouths of the Puyallup and Chehalis anchored up and casting from the bow of my sled. Plus, my sled is designed to run up river, then driftboat back down with oars. Brian (aka Doublespey) has been in my sled. Not with the oars though. It's a great boat, and is perfect if you don't want to run a chaser. Trust me here, I've run motorless boats for years (first one I rowed was a homemade pram of 11' on the Kalama about 22 years ago). It's much easier to add some gas to sled then run a chaser. Mixing is no big deal and the gas will last you a long time if you run to a spot then drift back. I fill up my 13 gallon tank maybe every 4 trips. You have to realize, any of you who feel they are loud and obnoxious. I remember the days when catarafts were scorned upon during low summerflows since we could run the water and DB's couldn't. Now you see them all over the damn place. Hell, they're almost considered a "fly fishermen's" boat anymore. But I remember back in the mid 80's when people got pissy just seeing one come down the river. In fact, I don't really think I saw another big cat, and maybe only a few small pontoon style boats until the early 90's. Angling is an evolving sport. Once we all accept this, and try to work together to set rules together, it'll be nothing but a living hell. Similar to what it is now. I'm a very considerate sled owner. It's funny that if I run on plane, people bitch, but are ok if I run half throttle by them. You create less wake on plane then you do pushing tons of water with most of boat in.

I'd also like to dispell this myth. Sleds ARE your friends. They DO NOT spook a hole. You know how many fish I've caught after sleds have chopped up a hole? I've had many days that were gonna be skunked turn into a "fish-on!" because a sled went through the hole. Most fish will leave a hole for a matter of minutes, then return to rest where they were before. Very rarely do the run up to the next hole. Usually after they've been disturbed they seem to be a bit more aggressive. I make it a point to get my lure/fly into the hole that just got run through. Usually it'll create a hookup. Prime example, my Dad's property on the Nooch. The guy across the way drops his sled in all the time. Nice deep slot with a couple nice pockets of holding water. If I see him dropping in, I'll get ready, especially if the fish have been locked jawwed. You guys also have to remember that sleds need to be at almost full throttle to run/steer effectively. They are slugs at 1/2 power or lower. Plus with the weight of engine and heavy gauged aluminum hull, they draft a TON of water in zero power or slight power. That's why alot of them have big engines. Hell, my 14' sled has a 75hp pump. Runs great and comes on plane quick with two guys (ask Doublespey). But put a third and seriously dogs that boat down. And the engine is a runner. But you're talking a super heavy reinforced boat. They need to have power to get on plane. Personally, I love the sound of a jet. I think it's a cool sound, but I have an aviation degree so love the sounds of jet propulsion. Plus, the feel of a jet is different then a prop. Don't ask me to explain, but it's a feeling you get running one. Must be the mixture of sounds and running on top of the water.

I'm sorry if I had offended anyone above on previous posts. Just tired of sled bashing. It's a typicle "1 bad apple" scenerio. Most jet owners are considerate. You always hear about the a*$holes. Just like anything else. But I agree, there are certain stretches of rivers that should be motorless. Then there are stretches that should be BOATLESS!!!! Just my .02
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  #43  
Old 04-26-2002, 11:39 PM
fredaevans fredaevans is offline
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Hoy Ve, interesting how it works down here in the Rogue

The "R" is one of the very, very few rivers in Oregon classified as "navigatable." (Sorry, spelling is the pits as I'm shot for the week).

Legally, the Rogue will allow motorized boats most of it's length; you may need a 'permit' for some sections but putt-putts are still allowed. But, and a big but, it's interesting how public pressure bends the 'allowed' to what's actually done.

Directly north of Medford is TouVille Park with its boat launch. Below this point in the upper river power craft are fairly common; above (although allowed by law) a boat with a motor is as rare as chompers in chickens. Guides who 'transend' this gentlemen's agreement are not treated with "kindness." Interesting to hear a guide (and his clients) get verbal 'rocks from hell.' Very few will 'go where men have never gone before.'


The local guides may know the law, but they also (few exceptions) 'know the rules.' Below TV I've had a few ("guides shall we say?") clients run 75-100 yards of line off the back of the boat into where bankie guys are fishing. At 59.99 years of age we've learned more than a few 'tricks' on how to cut this game off short.

One of the few times I'll walk back 3/4 of a mile back to the car and get a drift rod and very large sinker to sweep lines.

("Gee Golly ... we've tangled lines. Only way to free them up is to cut your's off. ... Can we all see the tear forming in the corner of my eye?..." Boat guys have 10'ish + miles of river to pound; they don't need my 60 yards. Forget .... and, with great provication, ... I'll remind them.

Life is good 99.9999% of the time down here. But a few folks, as with the exceptions in the English language, prove the "rule."
fe

Rant over. Sorry guys.

Last edited by fredaevans; 04-27-2002 at 12:04 AM.
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  #44  
Old 04-27-2002, 01:46 AM
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Here's my take on jets - I don't care for motorized stuff in natural areas. Yes, I do DRIVE to the river, but only to launch an canoe or driftboat or walk it. The river and its banks have a sound and beauty all their own. A deafening din, enveloping vistas, entrancing smells. The stench of a motor, and the sound thereof, breaks this trance and really puts me off.
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  #45  
Old 04-27-2002, 02:27 PM
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A good Saturday Morning to all. Hope some of you NW'ers got out for opening day of the trout season at your favorite local lake.
Steelheader 69, I'm on your side when it comes to sleds on rivers really I am. And I think you answered my question in a round about way honestly, as did everyone else here that owns one and uses it in some form or other to go fly fishing. 1st off you all mentioned that it gives you a lot more freedom on the river from being able to be on the river by yourself and not have to go through all that car transporting stuff. 2nd you all mentioned that it gives you the freedom to see more of the river and to fish more places on the river. 3rd, All of you voiced concern that your actions in a sled could have an affect on the fishermen that do not fish out of a sled. That is great that you all go out of your way to be thoughtful and considerate to others. So I have no problems with sleds whats so ever. You have answered and to me anyway, justified the use of a sled to flyfish out of and that indeed you have found a quality as well a quanity way to fish.
Now that being said, I would like to bring up some observations.
1) I only know a few of the flyfishers who have jet boats around the areas I fish and I know a bit about the others from friends. What is obvious for me is that these guys are part of that 10% who catch fish. Even before they had sleds they were looked on as good fishermen and some as good guides. ANYONE SEE WHERE I"M GOING? These are the guys that stay a head of the curve and they do so because they truely love what they do and are good at it, they put a lot of time and thought into thier fishing. Even if they do not like the term, Trend setter, that is what they are just from the fact they are good fishermen. If I'm wrong about this then let me know guys give me hell.
If I'm right then will history repeat it's self as it has in fly fishing and fishing in general forever. That is will a certain portion of the, (10% who catch) will they go out and get a sled for the same reason that those others in the 10% who have one now? Then what happens? Do a certain portion of the 90% who don't catch go out and get one too? I'll venture on many years of fishing experience that the answer is yes. I'll venture to say that many of those 90% will feel it is what they need to start catching fish. They will be wrong of course because it's not the sled catching fish.
Steelheader69 said it best when he said that not many years ago the pontoon boats were looked at in much the same light as jet boats are looked at now by many. I'm sure drift boats could fall under the same fire at one time.
The only reason this is important for me to know and for everyone who fly fishes to know, fly fishermen who use jet boats included. If this escalation does happen will you once again lose much of the quality that you gained by buying a jet boat? Think about it, When there are 5 or 10 times the fly fishermen on the rivers than there are now with jet boats those open runs that became open to you because of the freedom of a sled may not be open anymore. Does the quality we seek go on a downward spiral once again?
I know we fishermen are a crafty bunch and will find a way to achieve some form of a quality experience one more time, after all we have done it from Walton on. But with the excelleration in our sport over the last 20 some odd years are we running out of options for that quality experience? If you have not noticed please take a step back for a moment and think about it. Are we or are we not moving at an out of control pace. Is escalation the answer or should we be taking that step back and exploring some other alternatives? And I'm not talking about going back to gut leaders and silk lines.
Please Steelheader 69, this is not about sleds, I'm just using sleds as an example of many, many things happening in our sport. I could use a hundred different examples exactly the same as the sled one.
Everyone take a look at all the bitching going on out there at other fishing sites, it's about everything under the sun. Does this not point to something drasticly wrong. Ya, I know we can say there is not enough fish anymore, but guys that's a different problem and if there were more fish what would happen to the popularity of an increasingly popular sport then?
We sit on the river bank and on lakes and bays and quietly mention our alarm at the escalation in our sport. I have asked prominent well respected people in our sport why they have not really brought up this subject as they could really do a good job of expressing themselves and the answer is fear of being chastised for doing so.
For those who feel as I do is it time to step out of the closet take a deep breath and start a constructive diolog on how to save our sport from being loved to death?
OC
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OC
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