New SA spey lines - Fly Fishing Forum
Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum No such thing as rainbow trout, only landlocked steelhead

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-07-2001, 07:43 PM
pescaphile's Avatar
pescaphile pescaphile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE Alaska
Posts: 306
New SA spey lines

Saw a thread about these on Dana's site. Sounds like they'll be out in time for spring steelhead. I tried to post a follow up question but couldn't (@#4!+* MSN!)

Does anyone know if these will have interchangeable tips or are they a full floater? Any other info would be nice too as I'll be in the market for another line and might try one of these.

Pescaphile
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 11-11-2001, 08:20 PM
Highlander Highlander is offline
Recent Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 16
Pescaphile

These lines will be long belly WT forward lines. They should be excellent lines for people who want to make long casts without shooting line, they were designed originally by one of the worlds best speycasters. I was surprised SA would market these lines but it looks like its going to happen. I personally won't be buying one unless they market them as spey driver lines and give Derek part of the profit, but thats besides the point and my opinion. They should be awsome lines and fill the niche for people wanting to make casts of 100ft plus without shooting line.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 12-14-2001, 01:06 AM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
These lines should be out in the early new year and have a workable belly of @105ft of which you can lift the whole thing and cast due to the design. I have seen someone cast over 140ft with a proto of this line and a std. 15ft factory rod. I have also heard many people state that they can cast further with less effort than any other line that they have tried. Just a further note, the person who came up with these tapers did this on his own, and has never even seen one of Dereks lines.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 12-14-2001, 10:33 AM
andre andre is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: OR, WA, BC
Posts: 740
I don't know the technical details of the lines however, they are take offs of the continuous taper Alexander grant lines the Lee used as the basis for his TT. I have heard that Way has been using SW floaters with the "new" taper. I can only guess that this also increases distance and potentially the "stealthness"(the line will "float" under the film rather than over the film) due to the increase in density for the given surface area Additionally, it may allow the rod to load better with a shorter line?


Read fine and far off and many of the "new" things are really not so novel. However, Way has taken the initiative to bring the old line concepts and worked with the weights and newer rod designs to make them work quite well together from the sound of it. I think this is great for those of us who enjoy the long belly lines. Finally long belly "spey lines" lines from production environment, something DB unfortunately did not do with the Spey Drive.

Can't wait to give one a try.


Now hopefully SA doesn't get screwy with the pricing and keeps it realistic.

Last edited by andre; 12-14-2001 at 04:09 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 12-14-2001, 04:57 PM
kush's Avatar
kush kush is offline
CND The Spey Underground
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,435
I too am a bit surprised that these lines got marketed, mostly though since these are lines that will be useful to only the very best casters out there. In spite of the post that denies any relationships with the Speydriver line it does have a 40' continuous front taper along with all that belly like the SD-type lines. This means that the caster's technique needs to be flawless. If your skills are up to it this SD-type line is an awesome casting tool indeed. I do know a number of decent casters who have used this SD-style line and have given up. My advice is try one before springing for the undoubtedly steep price. The new "stealth" technology finish on the line will certainly be worth investigating and may indeed be an improvement over the other line.

Tight lines - tyler.
__________________
Tight lines - tyler.

Still Living Large!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 12-14-2001, 07:25 PM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
Actually, these lines have a continuous taper for the whole line just like any other spey line out there. And I really believe that these lines will be usefull to beginers who have a tendancy to have to much line stick on the D loop, The tip will help them cast despite this and in the long run make them better casters rather than spincasters ala windcutter. Grant was quoted in talking about throwing a glob of line attached to a thin running line as spinning, nothing more nothing less.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 12-15-2001, 03:40 AM
inland's Avatar
inland inland is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 259
With all of this hype, I guess I will have to try one too!!!

Fisshman,

After reading your last post, I sort of chuckled about your quoting that shooting line is just spin fishing.

It reminded me of the lesson that I observed this past June fishing the Matapedia's public sector.

Up until this point I was getting a little overconfident in my abilities to cast, with a windcutter or midspey, achieving plenty of distance by shooting line. Enter a New Yorker named Jim Roucher and a couple of his friends that have been fishing this river for over 20 years, and spey casting for much of it. These men use long limber English rods, roughly 16' for 10 wt lines. Much too much stick for my pleasure, but they ALL throw unmodified DT lines.

After fishing along side these guys for five days, I came away thinking "Hmm, you have a new game to learn, chief!". When the wind was not blowing too much, it was a great pleasure to watch Jim EFFORTLESSLY double or single spey 80' of line without blowing a cast for hours on end, and not shoot more than a yard of line. On a wider stretch of river he even opened it up to 100+ feet of line beyond the rod tip with the same song and dance. No constant stripping required. Efficiency at its finest. Lesson learned.

So I came home and started playing around with a few lines and settled on the best of both worlds, the Cortland DT Spey 8/9 for my old 9140-4. It mends like a traditional DT but, because of its 39'taper scheme, will throw loops like a WF.

William
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 12-17-2001, 01:29 AM
kush's Avatar
kush kush is offline
CND The Spey Underground
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,435
fisshman,

All factory spey lines do indeed have "smooth" joints between the various tapers. However, all functional spey lines DO have separate tapers. The front taper is in fact the forward section of the line that transfers the energy down the line to turn over the fly, the "belly" of the line provides the weight needed to propel the whole arrangement forward. A well executed cast will transfer the energy from the rod through the heavy belly into the front taper down into the leader and finally turn over the fly. Different line have different formulas for their tapers, ie. the Accelerator has about an 18' taper after the power hinge, the Windcutter has a much shorter one, etc., etc.

The SA line you refer to is no different, in fact it is very similar to the original line of this genre, the first of which was brought to these parts by Derek Brown. The front taper is 40' long, this extremely long taper necessitates superior technique as any flaws will be magnified greatly over this distance. Combine this with long leaders, big flies and the ever-present wind of big rivers and you need to know what you are about.

I know Steve can cast prodigious distances, but from all accounts he is a superior caster who practices every single day. I don't think there are many flaws in his delivery. The fact that Wei's line allows him to do so is no surprise to me - it IS a superior line design. However, I also believe that it is a line that will only give these superior results to those casters who have the technical skills to take advantage of the line's characteristics.
__________________
Tight lines - tyler.

Still Living Large!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 12-17-2001, 09:37 AM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
Tyler, Yes I know that all lines have seperate tapers. I have several spey driver lines and these all have various length front tapers and not just 40ft. Although 39ft is what is mentioned in Fine and Far Off for a front taper in a Grant line but it also mentions being able to adjust this length to situations(wind, big flies, etc...) I am not saying that just because Steve can cast so far with these lines that they will make everyone cast this far, but I do know that these lines cast short extremelly well and they have helped many casters cast further than they could with other lines.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 12-18-2001, 05:53 PM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
Tyler, I was just wondering.... if you were starting all over again to learn how to spey cast, which line would benefit you the most in the long run.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 12-19-2001, 01:55 AM
kush's Avatar
kush kush is offline
CND The Spey Underground
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,435
Fisshman,

An interesting question. I am definite that it would be a long belly line or at least a mid-spey. My rationale is that I think to learn to cast properly you need the longer belly. Without a doubt a beginner can cast a Windcutter with more immediate success. However, it promotes many bad habits or shortcuts. If a caster learns the proper techniques that a long belly demands they will be able to transfer the skills to any type of line. In my many discussions with Dana on the drives to the Thompson he relates that students of his who only cast windcutters normally have trouble with the longer bellies.

One other factor that I think is important for the learner is to be sure to line your rod so that it will sufficiently load your rod at the distances most commonly achieved by beginners. This is where my earlier comment that the SD type lines being a tough cast for beginners comes from - it is too long and fine for most casters. In fact I might even consider a double taper line as a good starting point, but certainly the mid-spey comes to mind as an ideal starting point.

Tight lines - tyler
__________________
Tight lines - tyler.

Still Living Large!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 12-19-2001, 09:50 AM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
Tyler,
I hope that you get to try one of these lines soon, because that is where the real difference with this new line and the speydrivers difffer. These new lines cast short far easier than any other line that I have ever used before. As to your comment about having the line heavy enough to load the rod for a beginner, I wholheartedly aggree.

Bruce.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 12-19-2001, 01:19 PM
andre andre is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: OR, WA, BC
Posts: 740
Bruce,

You seen to have more detailed info or time casting Way's lines than many others. To what do you tribute the ability of these lines to load the rod at shorter distances? With the fine taper of these lines I can only think of increased density of the line?

Last edited by andre; 12-19-2001 at 01:22 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 12-19-2001, 05:07 PM
fisshman26's Avatar
fisshman26 fisshman26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: B.C.- trout and steelies
Posts: 122
I really couldnt tell you(my best guess is taper). Way would be the best person to answer. I have only cast these lines a few times. But like I have said before, I was most impressed by how well they loaded in close, with the ability to go for distance, and still have control over your line and fly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 12-21-2001, 11:54 PM
spey_bubba spey_bubba is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 130
hello all. this is a neat site!

with regard to the SA lines, i thought i'd see if i can (perhaps) clear up some potential confusion regarding aspects of the line design, it's orgins, and it's intended purpose and audience...

as andre and fisshman26 accurately point out, the concept of a long continuous forward taper line is not new. it seems like the first gentleman to get the continuous taper epiphany for spey casting was alexander grant, who had the luxury of having square pleated braided slik lines made to his specifications (according to Mr G. Donald Rudd, aka "jock scott"). the lack of stretch in these lines, coupled with their density, apparently allowed grant to cast phenomenal distances without shooting any line; this was done so that grant could fish a slow swing on his home rivers of the ness and spey.

i think many have experimented with splicing their own lines to to improve performance beyond what factory lines offer "out of the box". my friends who fish single handed rods have done this for years. i have been heavily influenced by what has been written about grant, as have others like the great spey caster, derek brown. when i was initially fiddling around with splicing lines, it was derek who turned me on to grant's work, and a good friend, charles st. pierre, helped me find a copy of "fine and far off", which i have since read many, many times.

much seems to have been made of what constitutes a "continuous taper"; the masterline banker, for instance, has been made for many years, and preceeded the wulff triangle taper series of lines manufactured by SA. even these "continuous taper" lines, if one takes a micrometer to them throughout their length, have flat sections; the rate of taper (ddiameter/dlength) varies with each formulation. technically, any of the current spey lines are "continuous tapers" over their entire length, at the same time that their tapers are not TRULY continuous.

from a design and performance standpoint, a true continuous taper of equal slope turns out to be extremely inefficient unless the length of the casts are quite short. throughout the process of piecing many bits of line together to try to develop a gross understanding of the physics affecting a spey cast adn line, i have come to a few realizations that have guided the design of the SA lines. the tapers are designed to maximize turnover and efficiency of energy transfer, all to decrease or eliminate the necessity to strip and shoot, thus improving efficiency and fly control through the swing. interestingly i have observed two distinct second order regression curves which have been consistently present in the best of the lines we have put together. the taper throughout the front becomes extremely critical (and varies according to line weight and overal belly length), as does the taper in the back of the line, towards the reel. many lines cast 75 feet from the reel well, a very few cast 100 feet well.

i have never had the pleasure of casting or examining one of derek's spey drivers, although i have heard much about them. derek had stopped selling them several years ago. i have cast one other of dereks lines, the formula of which he was quite open in discussing. he basically used several sections of level line, creating a stepped taper design, with a section of masterline baker at the front, a more or less continuous taper. i tried this design, but found it didn't have the "punch" i was looking for, and didn't cast a sink tip well enough for my use in winter fishing. derek certainly cast it well, and the difference was, i am sure, simply due to the fact that he is one of the world's best casters, and i am not.

my designs have followed more of a continuous taper concept throughout the whole of the line, although after countless hours of digital video analysis of line turnover, there is definitely some areas of the line which may be flat because the energy transfer and momentum of the wave is extremely efficient (little degredation due to drag). the trick in design has been the balance of where one needs taper, and where one can do without. this becomes critical as the cast line length exceeds 90 feet, and at 105-110 feet of line, the differences are dramatic.

the fundamental goal of the lines was to provide the advanced beginner and intermediate caster with more consistent distance for the same effort; i.e. a more efficient line design. i also wanted to provide the advanced to expert the ability to cast and control the fly in a variety of very technical situations where a shorter bellied line will simply not cut the mustard. the distance potential of the lines cannot be ignored; however, i think that in fishing (not casting), fly control is more important than distance anyday.

i have been fortunate in having steve choate volunteering to be a ready sounding board for the lines as they have progressed through the prototype stages. steve is a fantastic caster, and according to derek brown, "the finest spey caster he (derek) has ever seen." high praise indeed. bruce richards of SA has been amazing at bringing countless diagrams, mass profiles and spreadsheets to something upon which one can tie a fish.

we have been fortunate in having a number of fishermen cast the lines, of all skill levels. although i had anticipated that the lines would be most appreciated by intermediate and advanced casters, beginners seem to cast the line well (usually "upsizing", as with other lines), although the knowledge that they are casting a prototype may have positively biased their experience.

the lines are tentatively due for international release in late january or february, and will initially be avialiable in a floating configuration only. we are working on a number of intersting tip configurations, but the R&D process is extremely time consuming. these lines are not designed to replace any existing line, and certainly won't be for everybody. lines and rods are as varied as personalities of those that fish them... i do hope that they will, however, add to the enjoyment of the sport and perhpas open new opportunities to those that fish them.

a happy holiday season to all, and best wishes for a wonderful new year!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fly Lines and Spey Lines peter-s-c For Sale by Owner 0 10-25-2003 07:46 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)