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  #1  
Old 01-20-2002, 08:52 PM
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Angry Digital Lake & River Maps

Looks like the electronic digitalization of our lakes and rivers are well are there way to make it easier for every one to ultimately catch fish. Per our other thread, information technology is a threat to our fisheries.

Check this out. I hope they do all of the lakes and ocean shores first and leave the trout and salmon rivers for last, or never would be better. Would you want every one knowing where the good runs and holes are on your home waters ? This is sure going to help a lot of people. ESPN site outdoors section now has this on it. Looks like a new feature added recently.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/oims/index.html

The firm which is offering this is Outdoor Intelligence, below is their URL. They just started in 2001. On ESPN Outdoors site they have all lakes now. They are offering this technology to all sorts of fishing and outdoor web sites.

Looks dangerous to me, takes a good part of the learning curve out of learning how and when to fish the waters.

Outdoor Intelligence

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Old 01-23-2002, 09:43 AM
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"Looks dangerous to me, takes a good part of the learning curve out of learning how and when to fish the waters."


I guess then friendship with a more experienced flyfisher who is willing to share his/her knowledge is also "dangerous" and takes a good part of the learning curve away. As do books, videos, magazines, TU meetings and fly shows.

Each person's learning curve is different, and some people will never "get it" no matter how much technology and information is out there. For those who DO learn more quickly, then what's wrong with maximizing one's time on the water, especially when some of us don't get to spend as many hours on the water as we would like?
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Old 01-23-2002, 10:36 AM
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When everyone "maximizes their time on the water" there is an increase in pressure on the resource. That's just mathematics. The question is how much?

In all the hoopla about the benefits of the internet, (and I agree there are many that I have reaped) it's not a bad idea to check or question the impact on the resource.
PMFlyfisher has referred to this idea in other threads and was treated like an anti technology heretic. Well I think it's something we ought to monitor and get more data on. I'm not going to just get in line and say "Gee the internet is wonderful and don't you dare question it". The data I'm going on is the number of striper fishermen whom I've personnally witnessed go from little or no skill to catching keepers routinely on their own flies in 1 or 2 seasons. You can't tell me that is not having an impact. The question is how much? The other question is how much conservation info they get along with it. I'm sure there are meat fisherman boards too.

Lefty
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Old 01-23-2002, 12:22 PM
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Interesting topic. You could look at it both ways...

Take 20 people from a busy showroom floor at a sporting show, line them up. Put the avid, fly tying, constant keeper catching internet surfin' savvy anglers on one side of the aisle. Put the grandpa taught me set-in-his-ways introverts on the other. Which would you trust to look after the welfare of a species? I would choose the more informed, more experienced, more savvy guy every time. People don't get good at fishing unless they absorb lots of information and process it to be applied to the problem at hand. Smart anglers don't bite the hand that feeds them and the internet unites such people to give the resources a chance in the fight against exploitation of our natural treasures while nobody was looking. History proves that the enemy is not us, but the lack of us.

If everyone on earth was an experienced flyfisherman, we'd be a lot better off.

I sincerely believe that an informed angler is far less harmful than one who only knows enough to be dangerous. He releases almost everything he catches, harasses fewer juvenile fish (just little stuff here, move on), and is perfectly secure about doing all his fishing without a barb or bait due to his advanced skill level. All it takes is a crowd of amateur fishermen with rod holders and lawn chairs to see what fish carnage is all about. By bringing people to advanced skill levels as quickly as possible you are sparing the fish from the abuse of unknowing sportsman on a shallow learning curve.
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Old 01-23-2002, 01:42 PM
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Of course on the "avid, fly tying, constant keeper catching internet surfin' savvy anglers" side of the room there are 479 guys. (like a July afternoon on Momonoy..doh) On the introvert side of the room there's 3 beer bellied dudes. Still mathematics.
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Old 01-23-2002, 01:54 PM
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Another thought: They ought to start with digital images of the underwater contours of every square inch of Chatham inlet. In front of the lighthouse they could put acoustic mapping devices underwater that update every week or so in case there are any changes. Then we could do a wireless connection to this database with our handheld fish finders, and cast our flies to the nearest lunker.
(still wouldn't help me, Chatham bites!). But my point is, where do you draw the line? Tis a subject for honest debate.

He say:

"If everyone on earth was an experienced flyfisherman, we'd be a lot better"

Ya NO parking spaces left at ANY fishing spots either. Forget the causeway...
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Old 01-23-2002, 02:47 PM
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Juro is 100% correct. EDUCATION is the key to the survival of our resources. Digital maps are only an aid.

I think a handful of uncaring flyfishers are going to do more damage than 100 educated people.

As far as the original poster's comments go, it kind of depends on what his main reason to post was.

If it was to complain that more inexperienced fishermen were going to be encroaching on his areas and making it not as pleasant for him to fish, then maybe the maps aren't the problem, but rather too many experienced fisherman not making enough room for the lesser experienced to enjoy the sport as well. That's one way of looking at it. Not a pleasant thought for many, I'm sure.

Another is from the comments made about too much pressure on the fish and our resources. Again, the pressure is going to come from those experienced anglers who have learned all the secrets that are truly hammering the fish. The inexperienced are just out there pounding the water.

Please don't get me wrong. All the opinions I have read are of value. But the real solution to the problem is NOT getting rid of digital maps or anything else. It's EDUCATION!

Those newer anglers who learn and appreciate what we have will not be a problem.

Those who don't learn, well, we'll just have to hope they slip on a rock, drown, and end up becoming fish food.
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  #8  
Old 01-23-2002, 07:23 PM
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Interesting comments, the bottom line is that the information revolution has enabled people's knowledge in ALL subject areas, not just fishing. I think you would all agree.

The more quality information that is available for people to learn and make decisions, which the internet has provided, the more quickly they can become skilled in the subject area such as fly fishing or a specific way to fish a particular fishery, thus the more productive they will become faster resulting in a greater volume of competent fishers. Also our population is increasing.

Since the fisheries are not expanding materially (a new man made lake every year or so, but no new rivers that I know of)over time there will be more pressure and depletion (demand) on our fixed fishery resources. The basic economic supply and demand model applies. Demand rises and the fixed Supply (fisheries) decreases over time.

If information technology is not controlled it will be a major risk to our society in the long term. My opinion. Read Future Schock - Alvin Toffler.

By the way I am not an anti-technology person, having a computer systems, business admin, MBA finance degrees and been working in IT/financial management for major international corporations for 27 years I know how fast IT has evolved in just the last 5 years with the internet connecting the world's information and people together.

Now Privacy Director for a major international financial services company's north american operations. Beleive me people are very concerned about their personal privacy (you should see some of the letters I have received) and misuse of their information through information technology is one of their main concerns they see as a threat.

We will see, it benefits me, and I and probably most others on this forumn are not a threat. However, I have heard stories on other fishing boards where reports of good fishing in a certain area result in 40 cars at the site the next day all due to the power of the information technology now available.

I personally don't want digital online maps of the rivers I fish available. I would rather figure it out myself like we have done to date. That is half of the challenge of fishing, figuring out how to do it.

Anyway it is a new risk to our fisheries we should all be aware of and not abuse.
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Old 01-23-2002, 09:04 PM
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The hard fact is that nothing can or will be done about things like this in our society. For the most part that is a good thing and has made us what we are today.

The supply and demand scenario is a good one but I think it does not go far enough through the cycle. As demand increases and, at least relative, supply decreases the supply will have greater value. With greater value comes increased protective measures such as more no kill zones, increased size limits, decreased bag limits and shorter seasons. For many, those additional protective measures will decrease the attractiveness of the sport and thus the demand will decrease. The ones who stick with it through the tighter protective measures will be around when the relative supply increases and will be there to mentor the inevitable "masses" creating the return of greater demand.

If we value the resources we use it seems to me that only good can come from teaching others how to use those resources and value them as we do.
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  #10  
Old 01-24-2002, 06:03 AM
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Here is an example of detailed web based specific information data base updated daily with web cams of steelhead streams in western NYS - Lake Erie. Sure the digitalized river maps will be added as soon as available.

Imagine how fast anglers converge on these small streams.

I don't think you would want this on favorite home rivers.

Surf around this one, I am sure there are more of these types coming on the web.

http://www.noodlebagger.com/
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  #11  
Old 01-24-2002, 07:18 AM
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I think the most important outcome of this debate is a credo for us, the members of the Forum, to live and play by.

We have experienced the backlash of our own success at certain locations because of our exhuberance and pictures posted, etc. But this is no different than a book, in fact a book is much more thorough by nature and can come along in your car to tell you which street to turn on.

Anyway, what we have done thus far to mitigate this risk is to adopt the following methods of sharing our wildest hotspots (and we DO have some hot spots!):

a) discuss details offline, but celebrate publicly online (big fish pics, no details).

b) invite those who are the biggest contributors to the community and personally show them these goldmines and how to fish them

c) we ask that people do not use this knowledge selfishly once shown, we consider them an important part of the reward system

Sounds like I am dreaming about how good these spots are, but I assure you those who have gone to mecca will agree that they are that good. These aren't spots that are being shared on line, I will assure you of that.

Sharing general knowledge is healthy. Giving away the farm serves no one but those who do not deserve it. We have plenty of killer spot knowledge. We are just good as distributing it amongst ourselves and it is tied into the honor code - those who do the most get the most first.
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Old 01-24-2002, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by juro

..We have experienced the backlash of our own success at certain locations because of our exhuberance and pictures posted, etc.
Agree.
Quote:
But this is no different than a book, in fact a book is much more thorough by nature and can come along in your car to tell you which street to turn on.
Disagree. The rate at which the internet spreads information can not be compared to a book. Totally different, the web eclipses books.

Quote:
Sharing general knowledge is healthy. Giving away the farm serves no one but those who do not deserve it. We have plenty of killer spot knowledge. We are just good as distributing it amongst ourselves and it is tied into the honor code - those who do the most get the most first.
Agree. I'm glad to see you have softened your tone from ALL OUT WEB ENTHUSIAM-Where education is what protects the resource- to a position of caution over what info we divulge. That's what the original concern regarding digital mapping was about. Those damn downlinks from satellites that use inrared scanning of Monomoy dude. Hawkeye may be right. It may be impossible to stop any of this stuff. And what of tradition? If FF has a traditional component, how geeky should we get with our technology? Remember, we are only a few years into the Web's impact on society. Web enthusiasm needs to be checked. There's no manual for what we're creating here. That's not a negative statement, but a responsible one. Bla bla bla.
At some level this is also a bunch of abstract BS. When can we go fishing?

Lefty

Last edited by Lefty; 01-24-2002 at 12:36 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-25-2002, 05:59 AM
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Yes I think the web is more dangerous than a book with its ability to provide daily information to a large audience on the status of fishing in a specific fishery. Never seen a book which could do that.

That web site I referenced above on Lake Erie steelhead streams
has daily web cam shots of a number of rivers plus if you are a member for $ 60 a year get to the members only where the guide shop gives you expert advice on the conditions and what to use, where to fish etc. I suppose. Thats what it sounds like from reading the FAQs on this site.

Yes this would save fisherman a lot of wasted time going to the river, when conditions are not good and expedite their learning curve, etc...

Not what we need at least for fishing, now for other subject areas in our society this type of technology is beneficial, but please not fishing, supposedly a solitary peaceful sport.

I have been through combat fishing scenarios, and at this point in my life, I will avoid them to the point of not fishing, it is just to much hazzle and spoils the sedentary experience.

Then I will golf where I will have a peaceful and fairly sedentary experience with a 90% probabilibily.

Hope this stuff does not get really out of control

Gotta go (To Work)
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  #14  
Old 01-25-2002, 08:59 AM
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We are bouncing around a lot... I thought the concern was about impact on the resource, but it now seems to be about an angler's personal experience ("parking lot full", "peaceful", etc). I believe we've established that the resource is better off with smart C&R FF'ers in the world due to a penchant for conservation and lifeblood connection to the health of the river, lake and sea. Who else would fight against dams, over-harvest, contamination and abuse of the resource besides anglers and outdoorsmen?

So let's discuss two more things: Movies and TV.

Television eclipes the web by orders of magnitude worldwide, for the time being.

The movie "A River Runs Through It" had a bigger impact on private fishing holes than any other media event in history, including any website you can name.

My point is the web is the web. It's good and it's bad. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. The future is in our own hands.
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Old 01-25-2002, 10:02 AM
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No we're not bouncing around any more than any other philosophical debate in the dead of winter. I think the comments have stayed pretty much within the topic. If you want to see a thread that took a dirt road go look at how I blew the Pike swap thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by juro


My point is the web is the web. It's good and it's bad. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. The future is in our own hands.
We ARE being part of the solution by being concerned about the role that technology is playing in impacting the resource, and discussing it here. Most people here have respectable crudentials in doing conservation. So that's a non starter. But as you said we shouldn't give away the farm. Some guy is probably out there right now putting a camera or something on a honeyhole-it might be your favorite Steelie pool too. Are you for or against?
I'm against. I don't think any ammount of web based conservation education can offset that. And as for the Lazez Faire notion of letting the supply and demand "market" drive away fishermen when things get depleted as a way of balancing out the impact- what right wing dogma. The woods and streams and oceans need protection period. Protection from overlogging, overdevelopment etc. And maybe that protection should extend to prevent handing the jewels of the outdoors over to people on a silver platter through techology or the web without the work. Reply away, but I rest my case cause I hate when threads turn into pissing contests.

Lefty
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