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  #1  
Old 10-10-2010, 01:10 PM
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Stop Cape Wind!

Put the windmills on Otis instead! The air force base is 30 sq miles, one third larger than the area proposed on Horseshoe Shoals. The cost of building on water has increased to 2.5 BILLION and the energy produced over water is 50% more expensive for the public than land based wind power.

This is a private entrepreneurial project backed by Deval Patrick's political agenda.
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/gree...ight__by_cost/

I believe in clean power, but trashing the sound is not the answer. Sign every petition, make every vote to stop this plan. Put wind power on land where it belongs.
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:27 PM
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Juro, I thought Otis was not in play anyway. That water was more plentiful than land on CC. Just an observation, not a comment. As to the effect on fishery? I ask what effect? btw. I simply don't know...I know the area is littered with hundreds of wrecks going back hundreds of years...that wreck fish and bridge pilling fishing is an art form in the Bahamas ,for example. So is it the fishery or the "view"? Just asking, what is the commercial guys position? sports fishermen? I know what landowners on the shoreline think, but they can afford to pay for any kind of energy...so they don"t care....just their "views", which I understand ,has been plainly stated by them.
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:43 PM
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Otis is 30 sq miles. The area on the sound is 23. The sound project is already up to 2.5 BILLION to build and we all know they'll never hit that. Building on land is significantly cheaper and is logistically simpler to maintain as these things break frequently. You don't even need a boat to repair one on land.

The project will RAISE electricity costs for consumers. Water-based raises the cost signifcantly more than land-based.

Cabling underwater is a serious matter.

Exactly right we don't know the impact - that's always the biggest risk. DDT, PCB to name a couple - we thought they were the miracle chemicals.

I am for clean power. But not when it has risks to the environment, raises electricity costs, and is a pet project for a private interest on our public resources.

Sign every petition and vote every vote to stop this exploitation of the sound!
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  #4  
Old 10-12-2010, 05:44 AM
nmbrowncom nmbrowncom is offline
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yeah, i agree. i'm all for wind power and other alternative energy-great ideas, but not in my back yard. now that's the american way-the same mindset that has led our great country got to energy independence, the benefits of which we have enjoyed for decades.
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Old 10-17-2010, 05:56 PM
Wee Hooker Wee Hooker is offline
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I drive by two of the biggest windmills in RI every day. I don't find them ugly at all.

That said, I'd preffer to see a land based wind farm vs in the sound IF a) they can get the same wind velocity/consistency near Ottis. ( Not sure they can) b) there are no other significant technical /financial hurdles .

Fact is, Our boys are going to continue to die in the middle east as long as we all demand an oil based economy.
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Old 10-17-2010, 07:28 PM
millerbrown millerbrown is offline
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Google is investing 5 billion for a massive undersea transmission cable that will hook up hundreds of proposed wind power sites in the mid Atlantic. All of this is going to happen and that is a very good thing!!

Cape Wind is the future!!
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Old 10-17-2010, 07:42 PM
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The suggestion is not to avoid pursuit of wind power. It is to do it smartly. This venture will generate insignificant energy and raise energy costs, introduce unknown risks and lease habitat to private interests. Research the numbers before making a 'gut' judgement... energy gained, cost vs. land based, longevity of water based systems, maintenance of water based vs. land based, comparison to solar projects, benefactors of this project etc.

The suggestion is to make the pursuit of wind power cleaner, cheaper and smarter via land-based implementation on a massive land parcel that is larger than the ocean area by a third.

This private 'pet' project will not save lives in the middle east, nor will it make any significant impact. It will introduce more pollution than it saves.

Take a look at what Europe is doing with solar power in Africa. Now there's a project that will save lives and make an impact.

Cape wind is not the future. Smart, clean, renewable energy is the future.
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:17 PM
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I am not disagreeing with you...and I am no expert on this subject... but don't all major changes start small... and "cape wind" may not be the future in and of it self but any alternative sourse must start somewhere. The only issue I have is what pollution are you talking about???? What is the strong aversion to this? Why is land better than water.... isn't land more scare fundamentally for the use of people....How is solar less "polution" than wind? I don't care about Africa... I care about us here. Africa is the middle ages with more corruption in government than all of Europe in it"s entire History.... the governments change every month... and lets not talk about the Sudan....so if solar energy is saving lives over there.... what do you mean? I think the poster who spoke of saving lives meant that we here in the US will not have to protcet our oil interests by sacrificing the men of our fighting force. I thought that was obvious.Now that we are talking about it..I am for it I guess... and and if we have to make some sacrifices for the greater good in the long run then that;s ok...since there is sacrifice on all great changes.... there has to be a war before a peace.... so this little pet project you describe, despite all the political issue you raise , is par for the course...nothing is easy...but Oil must go...one way or another....I need to know what is the pollution issue...maintanace? Electricity leakage? It will not effect the fish in my opinion or other sea life...life that has grerater adapatability than any on earth. What is the problem here.. I really don't like the Nantucketers coming of Nantaucket Golf Club jumping on the pollution issue when anyone really knows it the asthetic issue that they are concerned with. Anyway.. Look at the bigger picture in the long run is the final thing I want to say.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:56 AM
millerbrown millerbrown is offline
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Otis air Force Base was considered by CapeWind as a wind farm site but was rejected because it would produce appox. 50% of the energy of the proposed offshore site. A smaller (17 turbine) facility is now proposed for Otis.

Germany, the 3rd largest producer of wind power in the world, is expanding it's offshore wind farm capacity.

As I stated earlier, Google's mid Atlantic wind project will dwarf most land based wind facilities.

A wind turbine is cleaner than an oil well.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:58 AM
nmbrowncom nmbrowncom is offline
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like you stribule, i don't know the details of all the issues. but, the "not in my backyard"/aesthetic issue seems to be the real point.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:18 AM
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Do your homework... a small percentage of US energy production is foreign oil (total foreign/domestic petroleum use for power is 40%) based but 97% of imported fuel for driving is foreign oil. If you want to reduce dependence on foreign oil, STOP DRIVING those big cars.

A good example of putting private interests first is the British Petroleum fiasco. That's our oil, but a foreign company - how f*cked up is our free enterprise system? Wake up - it's all about the Benjamins my friends and Cape Wind is no different.

When (and if) wind is contributing into the grid, traditional generators must be kept running because wind is unreliable 70% of the time. They can't be shut down and restarted everytime the wind changes. Baseload electricity will never come from wind. It can add power to the grid, but the impact and cost should be weighed vs. blindly and emotionally supported as seems to be the trend.

If Otis can produce 50% of the energy (which needs to be validated) it will do so at a mere fraction of the billions budgeted for the complex water-based plan, cost less to install and repair, and thus the return on investment will be far better. Do this twice, or a hundred times across the nation and then we're getting smart about it.

Taking only the pollution aspect, let's start with the first step - pouring the foundations into 23 square miles of soft, ever-changing sand on the shoals. NMB these are the shoals not far from where you caught that double-digit albie that nearly emptied your reel. Completely unstable. The effluent from the concrete pouring alone will introduce vast quantities of toxins.

I have seen an assessment on this impact and will locate and post. This is just the foundation, not to even talk about the 700 pounds of rare earth materials imported from China per unit, the unnecessarily complicated logistics, vibration noise over 23 square miles of the sound, impact of power transmission lines in the water, thousands of migratory birds killed, etc.

The same people who would never live near a power line seem to have no problem lining the sound with them in the path of the bi-annual migrations of fish and wildlife. And they would call themselves 'green' for doing it.

The absolutely most frightening thing about this project is not what we know can go wrong, but what we don't know, and as history proves that will inevitably occur once it's too late to avoid it. DDT, PCB, Love Canal, the gulf, the list goes on and on.

If you're going to rebut, put up some researched numbers and provide reliable sources. I will do same.
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Last edited by juro; 10-18-2010 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:09 AM
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Juro buddy...I can rebut with facts or feelings...I don't have the time to do the necessary research. But for one thing, those who know their Geology know that those shoals have firm foundations.... prior to the last ice age all that was above ground plain...then the ice retreated and the water filled in...but that's quibbling...You make this wind power sound as problematic as the oil problems. Also.. I will stop driving all those big cars WHEN then start making smaller ones. But, again, I don't know and frankly, I am puzzelled by such an aggressive position... I would like to hear THE OTHERSIDE as well. When you curse the capitalistic system to drive home a point on WHERE this wind should go it confuses me..... and all the claims of pollution< the DDT, etc...where does that come from?...the pouring of foundations??? How else do you build things? All I can say is that the efforts to stop our dependency on Oil will have problems...but the ultimate outcome in the long run is better than what we have now. That's my point...You just don't want in on the shoals...you want it on land.... well I wonder if you could have a more meaningful debate with some hunters or hikers (not mention the trout guys and river and lake fishermen )as they talk about the use of The woods and lands they use. I think they would make the same points you do.... so then we would come down to the simple issue which is ... where!!! Which is the point isn't it. If there is pollution on land then you would remain silent simply because it is not on the shoals.... then where do you really stand? I don't know myself...but many beleive that the vast oceans would be the best locations to harness this power....Juro, you started the thread.... you could not have expected all to be in agreement... and I will agree but I need to hear from the otherside and the pros to having it where they think it will work....not just the negative stuff...there must be a positive story too. Respectfully commenting,

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  #13  
Old 10-18-2010, 04:02 PM
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A few points:

- As long as it remains an emotional issue, it will be as misguided as it is today in the so-called 'green' public's eye. Examination of the facts has quickly turned the most astute biologists and scientists away from supporting this - that is except for those on the Cape Wind payroll. A similar phenomenon was seen in the pacific northwest when the timber barons hired the best biologists to support logging old growth.

- Of course it's a matter of 'where' as well as how, and why. Wind power is very promising, if deployed correctly. Solar is even more promising, it is believed that 1% of the African desert can fuel the entire energy needs of Europe. A massive project is underway. Google it - this is the information age, it's not hard to do research anymore.

- The analogy with DDT, PCB, etc is that we humans believed that these were all great ideas, revolutionized our lives at the time. Later, when reality strikes, we're screwed.

PCB was the ultimate for transformer stability, CRT tube lining, pretty much all-purpose industrial synthetic... until it was found that it was a pervasive carcinogenic toxin that manifests itself in the food cycle to this day, it simply can not be eliminated.

People seem to think building windmills on sandy shoals is a great idea. Cape Wind may become a nightmare if we discover it has negative effects on the ecosystem, AFTER it's built. We already know it is a bad business decision due to cost and increases in electricity rates.

I hope this clarifies some of the questions posed.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:19 PM
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or I should say, some of the opinions I possess
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2010, 06:10 PM
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Sounds like you have done your research...I have not and freely admit it...I guess I certainly have no answer.... I just want to see us move in the right direction...but at the same time I do not advocate "the ends justify the means"... so I do know we have wind in other locations on land AND water....I guess I am not as troubled by at as you are....until I know more I suppose.
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