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  #16  
Old 01-14-2008, 06:44 PM
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Funny how we experience different results. With Cortland clear, Rio intermediate and Deep sea, and Scientific Anglers striper lines over the last decade I have used nail knots without said slip or cut-thru problems. I believe all of these lines have mono core. It could possibly be a function of the wrap count or evenness of tightening, keeping in mind that both ends must be pulled to tighten with opposite ends of the 'barrel' coming tight when the other end is pulled.

It may also be related to my removal of the level tip section which would have less coating than the end taper. I prefer to use a heavy butt section, 35-40# for saltwater, which might increase the profile of the grip, lastly I use maxima ultragreen which may have compatible material composition. Who knows

I have heard of this being a problem years ago with the "slime lines" of the past which I believe were an Airflo innovation, but since I use Airflo monocore lines with nailknots and have had no issues perhaps because of their excellent coating quality.

Another reason I prefer the nail knot is profile in the guides when fishing long leaders. On that note, the lowest profile option for braided core lines is the epoxy blind splice, which involves insertion of the butt section into the core a length before fixing with zap a gap but is not replaceable in the field. This is ideal for applications where a long leader involved pulling the butt junction into the guides, wonderful for greaselining summer runs on Spey rods.

Best to find what works best for you and use it.

.02
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:04 PM
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A couple months back in FFSW there was a quick article on a modified albright that I have converted most of my lines to, especially the tuna rigs. The problem with albrights I always had was the lock coming undone. This "new" (at least to me) version involved leaving at least two feet of tag and standing line after the albright which are braided together. You then put a surgeons loop in the end. This provides a very stiff strong butt section and still provides a pretty slim knot. I agree with Jim that for anything of size the nail knot is a recipe for failure!

Sean
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:43 PM
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anything of size Sean of course is referring to bluefin tuna!

However, a 40 inch bass, 10 pound bonefish, 60 pound tarpon or a 20 pound wild steelhead on a fly rod is considered to be 'of size' to many, which I believe is the more common interpretation of fish of significant size. The number of slipped nail knots in such cases, if tied right, is negligible in those cases at least as far as my findings would indicate and I would say I have a reasonable sample size in these areas to support that.

For bluewater gamefish, much more serious solutions are in order no doubt but keep in mind the vast majority of flyfishing is focused on trout.

So Sean, is that to say that the recommended factory loop or braided loop is the right solution for bluefin tuna?
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
anything of size Sean of course is referring to bluefin tuna!

However, a 40 inch bass, 10 pound bonefish, 60 pound tarpon or a 20 pound wild steelhead on a fly rod is considered to be 'of size' to many, which I believe is the more common interpretation of fish of significant size.
Let's get real here, maybe you consider those fish of size, but cut all of those figures in half and then you'll have what most of us schmoes that live in the real world consider "fish of size."
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2008, 11:57 PM
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Teflon raises a good point.

The question was about a 3wt and a 5wt. In such cases, I highly doubt that a granny knot at the butt to line junction would be weaker than a terminal knot at the tippet unless really badly tied, probability of that so low it's not worth considering.

That being said, there are preferences, beliefs and experiences in play for mid-size species which if nothing else provides food for thought. This is the level at which I like to play, both the hunter and the hunted are none the worse for wear after a brief but exciting exchange.

Then there are those hunting Red October with fly rods in a whole 'nuther league. I admire and respect that level of play, although I don't have a lot of experience in that arena. Seems to get into the blood of those who venture there.

In summary, using a bimini twist for a spring creek is equally inappropriate as a standard albright would be for marlin. Makes sense to choose accordingly.
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  #21  
Old 01-15-2008, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
Do people use those loops? I cut them off and sometimes the first foot of useless level line off too.

It takes me about 15 seconds to tie a nail knot using my double-ended needle waist deep in the water, which I need to do once or twice a season if that as indestructible as the simple nail knot is. I don't even bother with a loop connection since it's just as quick to tie a blood knot just like the other joints on my hand-tied leaders.

For me a line is judged by it's casting, coating (buoyancy, durability, dirt repulsion, etc) and core.

Like Walt said... how's the line?
Casts Very Good, but is like using gel spun. Do not use it unless you are going to wear gloves!
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
anything of size Sean of course is referring to bluefin tuna!

However, a 40 inch bass, 10 pound bonefish, 60 pound tarpon or a 20 pound wild steelhead on a fly rod is considered to be 'of size' to many, which I believe is the more common interpretation of fish of significant size. The number of slipped nail knots in such cases, if tied right, is negligible in those cases at least as far as my findings would indicate and I would say I have a reasonable sample size in these areas to support that.

For bluewater gamefish, much more serious solutions are in order no doubt but keep in mind the vast majority of flyfishing is focused on trout.

So Sean, is that to say that the recommended factory loop or braided loop is the right solution for bluefin tuna?

Definitely bluefin require the stronger connection but I have had failures with nail knots on much smaller game as well. I guess negligible is a subjective term. If you found a need to find a good tool for on water repairs my hunch is you have had more than what I would consider negligible failures. You never know when the fish of lifetime is going to show up. Rig for it and you won't be dissapointed is my thinking. The problem I found with nail knots is that it creates the most signicant hinge point of any connection I have tried. That cracks the coating over time which caused it to strip off the mono core. With the albright the clinch is on a double line and doesn't create the finite hinge.

I have a Rio Big Game line with the loops but haven't hooked anything with it. They appear solid and I didn't remove them.
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2008, 11:17 AM
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With all due respect the association is a faulty one, the tool was used less than 10 times in the past few years in the field of which 8 or so times were to repair bad connections for clients while I was guiding on Monomoy. The connections had failed for them, usually store bought braided loops. I recall more than once cutting off flourescent loops for them to improve stealth in mid-summer conditions.

Most of my usage was for new lines or the construction of loop connections per the step by step post I made in another thread.

E.G. I also carry a GPS but rarely use it while wading but when I needed it...

Again we experience different results. I am confident that my sample size and the virtual non-existence of problems is not a quirk, your results may vary.
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
With all due respect the association is a faulty one, the tool was used less than 10 times in the past few years in the field of which 8 or so times were to repair bad connections for clients while I was guiding on Monomoy. The connections had failed for them, usually store bought braided loops. I recall more than once cutting off flourescent loops for them to improve stealth in mid-summer conditions.

Most of my usage was for new lines or the construction of loop connections per the step by step post I made in another thread.

E.G. I also carry a GPS but rarely use it while wading but when I needed it...

Again we experience different results. I am confident that my sample size and the virtual non-existence of problems is not a quirk, your results may vary.
Got it. I certainly have learned my lesson with the braided loops and repaired a few line connections on the water as a result. Hopefully we can actually match schedules next season and hook up on the water for a little side by side comparison. Certainly more than one way to skin this cat with a lot of good options presented.
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2008, 12:38 PM
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Thanks for mentioning that braided albright Sean, I'd like to try to hook something this season that requires it! I did learn a lot from this exchange which is all good.

Basser's slim beauty post taught me a great new knot as well a while back.

One knot that was not mentioned was the castwell knot which is crazy simple but incredibly strong for smaller applications. I used it for casting practice and couldn't break the damn thing when I hit trees or rocks...

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  #26  
Old 01-15-2008, 05:06 PM
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On the topic of braided loops: As JimS mentioned, If you make your own double-catch loops from gudebrod 50# braided mono, you will not be dissapointed. Nothing I have used is as strong (you will probably break the fly line first) and they slide through the guides like butter. It's a great conection for sinking and/or big-game lines, but the loops are slightly more visible and spray a little on the first backcast. Not what I would use on the flats where a nail or albright knot is more appropriate.

For trout of any size, I dont' recall ever having a single failed nail knot connection.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:09 AM
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The double catch braided loops are what I use on all my fly lines and all my shooting heads. They are mostly made from 50# but I also use 35# for thin diameter lines like LC-13 and most running lines.

The welded loops will break long before the braided ones.

But to speak to the original point, whatever loop you use, you need to use another loop to make the connection. The only "knot" that you should use on a loop is the loop-to-loop "handshake knot." Anything else weakens the system just like an overhand "wind knot" will reduce the strength of a leader.
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:23 AM
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I use the braided loops as well in certain applications and have bulk spools of braided nylon running line, splice tools to make my own, etc. Also a critical part of my hybrid line loops.

Question for you braided loop guys... do you use a nail knot to secure the braided loop as I do?
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2008, 09:16 AM
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I do one nail knot at the end of the sleeve and put a drop of aquaseal over it.

I also put a small drop of aquaseal where the tip of the fly line enters the doubled 'core' of the braid.

If anyone wants to give it a try, there are good instructions on Blanton's site. A folded (unwound) guitar string is really all you need for a splicing tool.
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  #30  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:39 AM
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Cool thanks Dave

Now for an important question - have you tried the unwound 24 gauge D string (ala Hendrix et. al.) yet?

I am ordering a batch from Ernie Ball and will save one for you if you are interested in trying it.
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