Fluoro untying? - Fly Fishing Forum
Lines, Loops and Leaders Line / Leader Recipes, Loops, Splices, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-06-2007, 09:06 AM
South Shore South Shore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mass & Cape Cod
Posts: 20
Fluoro untying?

Went fishing last night and had a few bits on a wooly bugger, the most frustrating one being during the retrieve and I felt a pretty solid Whack! I paused for a second, pretty sure I set the hook on the retrieve. When I saw a good-size silver flash in the water I raised the rod to start the fight. However, one good tug and he was gone.

I brought the line in... and no bugger. It looked like it had untied, not snapped. There was a tight curl at the end that I think was where the knot had been. I had been using a Frog Hair leader, which I was told had some stretch to it unlike most fluoro leaders, and that I didn't need to leave much of a tag end. Is it likely that it untied? I was using an Improved Clinch Knot, with maybe 4 loops around the main line while tying.

I'm thinking I either need more loops around the main line, a longer tag end (I probably about 2mm max), or I didn't raise the rod fast enough and let him yank on it while I was holding the line in my line hand and didn't realize how much pressure I had on the fish. Any ideas?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 08-06-2007, 09:18 AM
BigDave BigDave is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: northeast salt chuck
Posts: 1,401
Try 6 turns on that clinch knot.

Usually the dreaded pigtail is a sign that the knot was knot tightened all the way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 08-06-2007, 11:17 AM
South Shore South Shore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mass & Cape Cod
Posts: 20
Thanks! I started giving it a couple more turns but all I got the rest of the night were a couple tiny bass on some dry flies. Not much of a challenge there.

It was just killing me though, that silver flash I saw was a good 15 inches long if not more and I have yet to pull in a trout on my fly rod.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 08-06-2007, 11:37 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Also consider stronger knots for light tippets like the palomar for instance.
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 08-06-2007, 12:51 PM
South Shore South Shore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mass & Cape Cod
Posts: 20
Good to know. I thought the Palomar was actually weaker under a certain loading condition - maybe when shocked? I was using 2X with the Bugger though, so I don't think that would be considered light tippet... correct?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 08-06-2007, 02:08 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
I doubt if a palomar is weaker than a clinch under any circumstances (except faulty execution of the knot). Do some experimentation and see what you find out, I speak from my experiences only and people have different paths through the FF world.

I used to fish trout as a top target species. Frustration over lost trout on super-light tippets is actually what drove me to using the palomar when I was a teen. The difference was profound for me using the same tippet. They could pop the tippet but not the knot.

Doubling the single strand around the hook eye (like the palomar does) makes the clinch a stronger knot. I think they call it the trilene knot or something. I prefer the palomar, much easier to tie.

I have been a winter steelhead junkie for decades, in these presentations a fly ends up in the rocks fairly often. It's pretty clear that a palomar is a stronger knot when you are pulling out from a rockpile.

Other knots are more suited to applications despite possible loss of knot strength, like the non-slip loop which imparts better action to certain flies but needs to be checked and re-tied to keep it strong enough; the turle and double turle are great for loop eye salmon / steelhead hooks and snelling a tippet is a great way to tie hooks for trailers (e.g. coho salmon flies).
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 08-06-2007, 04:25 PM
South Shore South Shore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mass & Cape Cod
Posts: 20
Sounds like I'll be learning the Palomar then, thanks for the tips!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 08-07-2007, 11:27 AM
JR SPEY JR SPEY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Just about anywhere
Posts: 624
My experience is that the typical improved clinch knot is one of the weakest you can use with fluoro. A step up would be an UNimproved clinch. Better yet is the so-called Trilene knot (essentially an unimproved clinch with two turns around the hookeye.) In my experience, a knot better than any of the above is the Pitzen. Also, I do not lubricate my knots when using FC as the material, at least the stuff I've used, is already very slippery. I think that's doubly important for a knot tied while actually fishing as it could be tested right away. One can Google up Pitzen to find very good diagrams and instructions. It really is an easy knot to tie. I also like the Palomar, but it uses up quite a bit more of the tippet than a Pitzen. I always thought it was better suited for use with conventional gear for that reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 08-08-2007, 01:21 PM
pescaphile's Avatar
pescaphile pescaphile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE Alaska
Posts: 306
Fluorocarbon is notorious for slipping knots. The palomar will take care of this problem at the hook. I don't doubt the other knots that have been recomended will work also. The palomar is just the knot that I know and use.

Clinch knots are not good with fluorocarbon. Blood knots (essentially two clinch knots tied back-to-back) will also fail far too often with this material. Use a double or triple surgeon's knot with fluorocarbon instead of a blood knot.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 08-08-2007, 03:51 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
I haven't had any problems with 1/2 flouro half Maxima blood knots. I don't use flouro taper sections though, only tippet so not qualified to offer any observations in that area.

I hear flouro isnt the best for the environment so minimize it to use only when it will make a big difference and discard it properly when it's beat.
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 08-19-2007, 05:16 PM
Nooksack Mac Nooksack Mac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: north. Washington/south British Columbia
Posts: 323
Send a message via Yahoo to Nooksack Mac
Where less is more

I read that the factories have analyzed knot performance with micro-photography, as well as carefully controlled and measured comparison tests. An important discovery was that knots that fail prematurely usually slip internally before they come apart; hence the pigtail curls. Knot choice is important, and there are several that produce tippet-to-hook connections of above 90%. I like the double-loop cinch and the Pitzen (Pitzer?) knots.

But the problem with tying any knot is a matter of technique: you've got to get ALL the slack out of your knot in order to achieve optimum strength. After tying on a fly, have you ever pulled on the tag end with your teeth or pliers? The tag end got longer, didn't it? I don't think that's stretching; rather, it's the result of pulling slack out of the knot. And that makes it as strong as it can be. You can pull on it until it breaks (at that knot's maximum strength), but it won't slip.

About wraps: Most knots are devices designed to create friction, so much friction that the knot can't pull loose. The more wraps, the more friction. But there's a point of diminishing returns, when too many wraps creates so much friction that the knot can't be pulled tight. Try, as an experiment, tying a cinch-style knot with 10-12 wraps. You can't pull it tight, right? Tie it again with fewer wraps until you find the optimum number that allows you to pull it tight. Heavy tippet, and tippet tied with stiff mono, and some fleurocarbon, requires fewer wraps for an optimum cinch knot than 7X tippet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 08-22-2007, 01:20 AM
chromedome chromedome is offline
chromedome
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NIAGARA
Posts: 140
A knowledgeable clerk in the local fly shop told me there are special concerns with knots using frogs hair and that they recommend certain knots that could likely differ from what a person is used to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 08-22-2007, 03:45 AM
Galong's Avatar
Galong Galong is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 66
I found a diagram of the Pitzen Knot at http://www.fintalk.com/fishing-knots/pitzen-knot.html

Thanks guys... I learned something today. Now I need to rest my brain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 08-22-2007, 11:35 AM
geardaddy37 geardaddy37 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Great Lakes Watershed
Posts: 53
thanks for the knot reference...I know what I tie, but don't know what it is called, so now I can actually reference what you guys are saying!
Bill
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 08-24-2007, 09:27 AM
South Shore South Shore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SE Mass & Cape Cod
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by chromedome
A knowledgeable clerk in the local fly shop told me there are special concerns with knots using frogs hair and that they recommend certain knots that could likely differ from what a person is used to.
Local flyshop here says the Frog Hair is unique in that it will stretch a bit, unlike most fluoro. I don't know enough to discount this either way, but he said he uses it for most of his fishing and hasn't had any problems with an Improved Clinch.

Anyway, I got a couple smallish schoolies this last weekend in a creek on Cape Cod with a 2X leader (largest was only about 16-17"). Put some pretty heavy pressure on the larger of them and no problems so far. Just making sure I'm using a proper half-dozen turns and leaving about 3mm on the tag end.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for Stren fluoro 6 lb shad For Sale by Owner 2 10-23-2006 04:08 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:01 AM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)