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Old 03-12-2007, 09:03 PM
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LA vs SA reels

i've been thinking about this recently and wonder what the members of this forum think.
is it better to get a large arbor reel or a regular arbor reel? bear in mind the following...
large arbor reels tend to cost more, are bulkier, and don't hold as much backing. LA reels, though have quicker line pick up and less line memory, and more constant drag.
but, with a regular arbor reel, once you have added suffient backing, you essentially have a large arbor reel and you have the benefit of having more backing should the need arise.

am i missing something or is there a benefit to the LAs that i have missed?

as a caveat, i own both regular and LA reels (i've also noticed quite a bit of variance in what constitutes are LA).
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:05 PM
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just some more food for thought:
From the orvis webpage specs:

to keep it apples to apples in comparison all specs are for the III model (based on 6wt line) and backing is 20 lbs orvis dacron.

price size line pick up per revolution yds of backing

Battenkill LA $198.00 5.25 oz 11" 50 yds

Battenkill MA $119.00 5.8 oz 3.25 " 75 yds

Battenkill SA $119.00 3.75 oz 3" 100 yds



so based on these figures the battenkill LA does have some advantages over the SA but the tradeoff is a pricier and bigger reel. as for the midarbor, not seeing much advantage (i must admit i own one). based on these specs, i would also submit that many other brands' LAs are really more in the midarbor range (ross BG 3.75", Lamson litespeen 3.75", Abel super -6 3.75", Tibor everglades 3.75", etc.)
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Old 03-13-2007, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsmithii
but, with a regular arbor reel, once you have added suffient backing, you essentially have a large arbor reel and you have the benefit of having more backing should the need arise.
True until the fish makes a long run. Then you are winding like a banshee to get 10 feet back. Also when the fish makes a hard push at the end of a long run the reel spins wildly. Some of my LA reels have a core diameter close to the start of the flyline on my standard arbor reels. Thus even down 300 yards I am winding the LA at the start up rate of the other reels and incremental runs at long range feel manageable.

Although the reel diameter may be bigger to the eye, some true LA are so light and agile you get over that quickly. The spools are often wider too which adds backing capacity.

Not to sound like a broken record but I find the Danielsson 6nine to be a great striper reel with gelspun backing and a 9wt line, and it doubles as a great bonefish reel with a 7wt or 8wt line. It's retrieve rate is great even with a lot of backing out there which has been thoroughly road tested. Smooth drag, small package but every bit a L/A reel.

I wouldn't call it a 40# bass reel but for most shore fishing situations it's a dandy and meets the aesthetic criteria as well. Face it a 9wt single hander is a pretty light rod for the fish we hook. The 6nine is plenty of reel for a 9wt rod with gelspun.

I just got the 8eleven and will be fishing it on my 9wt and 10wt rods this season. Again the diameter, by definition, is larger but it's super light and I am confident that I will enjoy it as a full-duty striper reel.

Ideally there would be an LW 7eleven... right in between the 6nine and 8eleven.... but that's another story.
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Old 03-13-2007, 06:19 PM
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juro you make some valid points, but for the vast majority of sweet water fishing, you rarely get into your backing (except salmon, large steelhead), so do you think that a LA is worth it otherwise (asthetics aside)?
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Old 03-13-2007, 08:30 PM
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Sa/LA Trade-offs

I think so much of the question hinges on just what you're fishing for. In addition to the important advantages in retrieve speed, there is the criteria of start up inertia. Because the spool radius is in effect the lever arm the fish uses to start the spool turning (and the drag dragging), the large and very-large arbor designs allow for a smoother drag initiation, so they are progressively more desirable with fish that accelerate rapidly (and hard) to a higher speed. i.e. bones, tarpon, albies.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:02 PM
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Good point vtloon

JL -

I assumed you were looking for a SW reel because I saw the 3.5" stats.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:28 AM
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I just bought a large arbor simply because of the ability to pick up more line quickly. It's a Orvis Battenkill 3/4 for my current 4 weight, and another 4 or 5 weight that I hope to pick up at the Bear's Den later today.

Startup drag was a secondary consideration since I usually use a 7X tippet, even for smallmouth and salmon.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtloon
. . . Because the spool radius is in effect the lever arm the fish uses to start the spool turning (and the drag dragging), the large and very-large arbor designs allow for a smoother drag initiation, so they are progressively more desirable with fish that accelerate rapidly (and hard) to a higher speed. i.e. bones, tarpon, albies.
Why do you say this? A larger lever arm means the resisting torque of the drag must be greater than a smaller diameter spool to achieve the same resistance (drag) on the line. So for two reels having the same drag system but one being conventional and one being LA design, I'd think that the conventional reel should have a smoother startup because it's drag does not need to be clamped down as hard (greater friction is required to achieve the necessary greater torque) to achieve the same resisting force on the line.

By the way, startup inertia is the same as the inertia when the spool is spinning. I know it's a commonly-used term in the industry, but it's a peeve of mine (grain weight is another). The correct term would be startup torque. With respect to inertia, actually the moment of inertia, a larger diameter spool will have more mass concentrated further from it's spindle and thus be less be more resistant to starting up (accelerating) per Newton's second law.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but simply saying that because the lever arm is greater doesn't explain your claim that drag initiation would be smoother. Could you elaborate?
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflon_jones

Startup drag was a secondary consideration since I usually use a 7X tippet, even for smallmouth and salmon.
I'm curious, why do you use a 7X tippet for smallmouth? Are they incidental catches while trout or salmon fishing with 7X tippet?
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:35 PM
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I think you should get a Mid Arbor since you cant decide between small and Large. Split the difference.
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Old 03-14-2007, 05:10 PM
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I think that when people refer to "start up drag" or "start up inertia" they are really talking about stiction. That is, the slight increase in drag friction as the spool begins to turn. I can feel it in some very fine reels, but in practice, a reel would have to really suck for this to be an issue since we usually fish with drags that are light compaired to the breaking strength of the tippets. I think it is mostly an issue in the shop. For instance, all my Islanders (and every one that I have seen) have had slightly more stiction than my Abels or Tibors (draw bar/cork drags). I've never noticed a problem while fishing.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro

I assumed you were looking for a SW reel because I saw the 3.5" stats.

juro, not necessarily, just looking for some good conversation. just happened to pick the 3.5 stats because that was a line weight that i could compare a SA to MA to LA reel.

as for the drag question pescaphile, consider this:

Fish takes your fly and starts to run, he runs at a constant speed for 125 yards

at the start of the run, your spool (given a standard arbor) is lets say 4 inches in diameter, thats 12.56 inches in circumference, or there abouts (keep the math simple)

as that fish pulls line the diameter of the spool decreases as your backing leaves it

after the fish is lets say 140 feet away, lets assume the diameter of the spool, the outter most wrap of backing now measures 3 inches, a one inch reduction in diameter, now a circumference of 7.065 inches just over half of what we started with

OK,Wheres his point

remember, the fish is pulling at a constant speed, since the diameter is decreasing, the spools speed must increase, dramatically as I hope I have illustrated, so a 1 inch reduction almost doubles the spool speed, and drag pressure is directly related to spool speed, so to sum that up, the further the fish runs the more drag your reel applies

with a large arbor, the reduction is MUCH less, and not only less in inches, less percentage, while a standard arbor will "shrink" nearly 90% as a fish runs, A large arbor is only gonna shrink 20% of the original diamater

thus the spool speed on a large arbor stays MUCH more constant during the run of a fish than a standard, and thusly the drag pressure is more unifrom

DISCLAIMER: All the stats in this are poorly researched at best, and most of them are just plain made up

It is my understanding that this was one of the primary considerations when LA's first where developed, but it was so hard to explain i marketing, they just pushed some of it's other benefits

i think this is the point that juro was making about hard running fish in his first post. Like i mentioned earlier, for sweetwater, in my experience, most fish will not get into your backing and therefore the original question; is a properly spooled SA essentially a LA?
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie
I think that when people refer to "start up drag" or "start up inertia" they are really talking about stiction. That is, the slight increase in drag friction as the spool begins to turn. I can feel it in some very fine reels, but in practice, a reel would have to really suck for this to be an issue since we usually fish with drags that are light compaired to the breaking strength of the tippets. I think it is mostly an issue in the shop. For instance, all my Islanders (and every one that I have seen) have had slightly more stiction than my Abels or Tibors (draw bar/cork drags). I've never noticed a problem while fishing.
Eddie:

Yes. Static friction (stiction is not a word despite what you'll find on the web that may be changing though as it is used more) is what people are incorrectly calling "startup inertia".

You have it backwards about the friction on the drag surface for the moving versdus stationary spool though. There is a decrease in friction when the spool begines to turn -not an increase. Static friction always exceeds dynamic friction. If you look up a table of coefficients of friction for various material in contact with other materials, you'll see that the dynamic friction coefficients are less. With a good drag, the static friction will be close to the dynamic friction and as a result the lines comes out smoothly.

With a bad or poorly-maintained drag, the static friction is so great that a relatively large amount of torque (leading to friction on the drag surface) is required to cause the spool to begin turning which is followed by the spool spinning rapidly and then stopping and restarting again. You'll see the rod actually throb as the spool starts then stops then starts, etc, repeatedly.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:55 PM
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jlsmithii:

Yes, you're absolutely right that the drag applied by a reel increases as line is removed. This is because the torque required to make the drag slip is constant. So as the lever arm (diameter of the spooled line) decreases due to line being removed, the line tension must increase to apply the same amount of torque that is necessary
to make the drag slip.

However, the size of the reel's arbor has nothing to do with how this changes. In actuality, it is just the width of the spool that makes the difference.
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pescaphile

However, the size of the reel's arbor has nothing to do with how this changes. In actuality, it is just the width of the spool that makes the difference.
explain how it is the width and not the arbor size. (arbor size being reel arbor + line on reel diameter).

the width of the reel is constant as made by the factory.
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