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Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum No such thing as rainbow trout, only landlocked steelhead

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  #16  
Old 02-04-2007, 06:28 AM
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SALMONCHASER SALMONCHASER is offline
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That strange drifting hay bale phenomena happens on this side of the world as well.
My experience with bands or tribes is it is almost always two or three pissed off "warriors" who really stir the pot. I've seen these guys do some sick sh*! just because a so-called right says they can
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2007, 03:08 PM
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Feiger Feiger is offline
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oh, but it's not that simple, Eric....

Apples and Oranges......
Commercial hunters of yore were but a small part of the local and larger national economy. Easy targets. The only losers in their demise were the hunters themselves, and perhaps the markets that sold their birds, the restaurants that offered them up, and the public that ate them. Oh, and maybe the guy that sold him the shot and powder for his battery guns... Because of their limited/non-existent political clout, they were easy targets for the newly minted hunter conservationist movement, brought out through leadership of Teddy Roosevelt and others. The market hunters didn't stand a chance. And yet the impact of their demise probably wasn't all that... habitat degradation through loss of beaver and great plains wetlands and wintering grounds, industrialization, et al. still continued to take it's toll, along w/ drought, and so many other factors that affect waterfowl populations... and continue to this day... And yes, the only ones that really lost were the hunters themselves, and yeah, am sure they found something else to do. And the restaurants and public certainly still got their duck. However, this time it was coming from FARMS, raised in mass production facilities (kinda like turkeys). No word on the environmental impact of those operations, however. But certainly that sounds familiar, right??

On the other hand, you have a fishing industry that is politically and economically powerful, and a native fishing program that's legally protected. the latter protected by treaty and court order, and won't be going away anytime soon. The former is worth hundreds of millions of dollars to local economies, including the fisherman, and all the support services and industries, etc. that surround, feed off of, and support that way of life. And that impact ripples out through the national and even global economy. Writing letters in search of legislation to make it "go away" won't go anywhere. And through the economic power they have, the political clouts goes w/ it. Case in point ~ the commercial fishery for salmon along the northern California/Oregon coast was shut down this past year to protect endangered salmon in the Klamath Basin. In response to that decision, the politicians, and the money, came running w/ financial assistance and political focus on the plight of the Klamath Basin. W/ that focus comes word that court ordered changes to allow fish passage on existing dams, or, in leu of that being economically impossible, the dismantling of those dams. And, changes in flows and insurance of minimum flows to meet habitat needs, and.... That same economic and political clout (not to mention the Tribes of the Columbia River Basin) has the Federal Government before Federal Judge Redden for the 4th time w/ a court directed re-write of the salmon management plan for the Columbia and Snake River systems. W/ the threat that if the National Marine Fisheries Service (fed gov) doesn't come up w/ a real and workable management plan that REALLY considers the effects and potential removal of the 4 lower Snake River dams, he'll do it for them. Fat chance THAT ever happening from a letter writing campaign from WSC and it's membership...

Speaking of which, let's look at our "success".... Even after an extensive letter writing campaign to get the State of Washington DNR to withdrawal the harvest of wild steelhead on the Olympic Peninsula (of which I, and I'm certain you participated in), public testimony, and limited political influence, and the short term success of a proposed halt to wild fish retention, ultimately political and economic clout (however misguided) won out, and that proposal went out the door. Strike one up for...well, not us...

My point of this rant? What ever short term gains may be achieved by seeing the local gill netter go away, and however that may affect the plight of wild salmonids, at least locally, the difference in the larger battle that is wild salmonid populations across the pacific coast won't be all that... the tribals will still be netting, the dams and hatcheries on the Columbia and Snake Rivers will still be there, as it will on the Skagit, and all the other S Rivers, and the Frasier, and... and the fish farms will likely still be there, along w/ their political and economic clout, because the demand for cheap salmon, no matter how bad the substitute, isn't going away either. And yet, what you've lost is yet another local voice that essentially want's the same thing we want. And while the industry at large will continue to remain, in lands far away from the PNW, locally it will disappear. And with one less voice, or for that matter many less voices, clout for abundant wild salmonids and functioning watersheds and all they we desire will diminish with it. And those who "want something else" (strip malls, housing developments, clearcuts, cheap hydroelectric power, "farm fresh fish") will only grow stronger...

"first they came for the commercial fisherman, but I didn't speak up, for they did not matter to me....................Then they came for me, but no one spoke up for me, for there was no one left to speak (and those that remained didn't give a $%^& that I wanted to catch and release wild steelhead)..."

Loosing any voice that supports more wild fish and healthy salmon systems is not acceptable. We will eventually loose for it. And to keep that voice intact, and hopefully expand them, you HAVE to know and understand them and their issues and concerns, and values and wants needs and desires, in the same way you have to share your own. W/ out that, we won't find ways past the disagreements and different perspectives. Which was the original point of my previous post, which apparently you didn't get..........
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Last edited by Feiger; 02-04-2007 at 04:00 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2007, 03:12 PM
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never mind...

stupid frickin' dial-up.... one to many submission-button clicks...
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Last edited by Feiger; 02-04-2007 at 03:52 PM. Reason: repeat of above post...
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2007, 05:27 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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Feiger,

In Pennsylvania at least, market hunters had a very devistating effect on wild game, especially deer and elk. The deer and elk populations were so decimated that there was only one small area in the whole state where elk were still found (and is the only place in the state they are still found today). That was in the nearly inaccessible national forest lands on both sides of the "Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania"). The deer population was also severely impacted by the market hunters, who not only shot them for resturants, the also shot them for the local grocery store and butcher.

After market hunting was banned in Pennsylvania around 1900, the deer populations began to rebound, as did the elk. The deer populations continued to grow even during the height of deep shaft and strip mining for coal (and all the very bad things coal mining, especially early strip mining practices did to the environment) occurred duing the 20's to through the 50's.

Today, deer are so abundant in Pennsylvania that they have become a nuisance in some areas. In fact, up until the time I left Pennsylvania in 1979 at age 25, there was only a 2-day doe season for deer, and that was held on a Monday and Tuesday. Now there are as much as several weeks of doe season to help control the population, and this despite more housing development, more strip malls, more big-box stores, etc., which as far as I know have never been conducive to habitat needed by wild game animals.

The elk population has increased too; however, it has been much slower to rebound somewhat due to how few elk were left (estimated at only about 40 animals) when market hunting was banned, and also due to poaching in the remote area they still hung on. Also, the area the elk hung on is prime habitat that has never been developed or mined and which is virutually roadless. Elk have rebounded despite the poaching and the very low numbers left in 1900 to around 800 animals.

The bison of North Dakota, South Dakota, Western Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Eastern Colorado, and Oklahoma were likewise almost made extinct by market hunters. Likewise as least on bird species in the US was made extinct by market hunting.

There is also the lesson of the east coast stripers. When commercial netting of stripers was going on to a fairly large extent back in the 50's and 60's, the striper population was so impacted along the eastern seaboard that all striper fishing was shut down for a while. There was a dramatic rebound in striper populations after commercial netting for them was banned and as a result there has been very good striper fishing once again for quite a while and good populations of them despite pretty heavy sportsfishing.

Therefore, I must respectfully disagree with you on commercial hunting or fishing not having had a large and negative impact on game animals and fish.
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  #20  
Old 02-05-2007, 10:12 PM
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Feiger Feiger is offline
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Flytyer...

Russ, there's a PM in your inbox.... no reason to flame out over a discussion where were not on the same page...

The larger point, I guess is also being missed. My guess is it comes down to whether or not one believes commercial fisherman and that industry has a seat at the table of what is wild salmon and steelhead recovery efforts. If you don't, then my arguement and original post, and the one that followed are moot...

I, however, think they do. I don't think we, those that are concerned about and desire to see abundant and healthy wild salmon and steelhead systems, can afford not to have them there. As stated in my previous post, I don't think we can afford to loose the political and financial clout (in all the forms previously described) in the battle for those fish. As fisher/conservationists alone, we have little if any political capitol to change policy in the management of wild salmonids. We are unorganized, dispersed, and have no financial weight to speak of. The rediculous debacle that was the failure to get no harvest regulations on wild fish on the OP is proof of that... As mentioned above, those commercial fisherman and that industry (along w/ the much maligned Tribes) are a driving reason why the Federal Government is before federal judges, being forced to develop real and workable salmon management plans in the Columbia basin and the Klamath Basin. And why we may actually see real change in the management/presence of dams on those systems, as seen in recent events on the Klamath Basin.

Given that one desires to have the commercial fisherman and that industry at the table (and yeah, I may be the only one here that does), the only way you will get them to modify their behaviors and beliefs is to be able to talk with them. And that requires listening. That requires being willing to hear their concerns, their beliefs, their desires, wants and needs. That requires being able to understanding where they are coming from. Only then will we find ways to strengthen the things we have in common, diminish the things you don't, and work effectively together to overcome common "enemies" (urban developement of watershed, hydroelectric projects, fish farms, timber harvest practices, irrigators, etc.)... It's called collaboration. That was the point of my original post... And those who give a damn about wild salmon and steelhead can't afford not to participate.
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  #21  
Old 02-06-2007, 09:10 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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I honestly don't think the commercials will modify or change their behavior, fishing practices, or vuluntarily cut back their harvest. Instead, I see the commercials doing what they have done historically, advocate for more harvest opportunity and increased hatchery plants regardless of the effects of wild fish. Therefore, the only way I see the commercials cutting back their harvest or stopping it for a while is through restrictive regulation. That is why I don't think they should be at the table.

I view it the same way Pennsylvania did the coal mining industry when they passed the restrictions on coal mining and forced the mining industry to clean up after itself back in 1967. The coal industry screamed that they should have been at the table and that it was unfair to single them out. Thankfully, the restrictions and cleanup requirements were put into place, and done so without input from the coal mining companies.
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  #22  
Old 02-06-2007, 10:19 PM
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Eric Eric is offline
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Floaters on the Flood and Divers on the Ebb:

I put in $0.02, Feiger puts in a dollar. Thanks, Feiger, for laying out your position so eloquently.

I am not opposed at all to commercial harvest of andromous salmonids. Salmon are, and, I hope, will always be an important staple in the diet of our continent's peoples.

Nevertheless, I do take issue with gillnets. I believe the gillnet's indiscriminate slaughter of everything caught in it -- hatchery fish down to the last Snake River sockeye -- is an abomination in light of today's critical need for preserving the threatened and endangered races of Pacific salmon and steelhead.

I agree the best time to harvest salmon and steelhead is when they first enter estuaries and fresh water. Nothing compares to a snow-belly Spring Chinook as table fare, and far be in from me to deny the non-angler this seasonal treat. The same goes for other harvestable populations of salmon and steelhead.

Remember that the Columbia River fisheries were in sharp decline long before the first dam was constructed. The fisheries were in decline because of over-harvest by commericials, chiefly gill-netters. The gill-netters, even at that time, were well organized and well-heeled, and able to shift blame for the declining runs on the fish wheels. The gill-netter has had his day, like the market gunner, and it's time to realize that.

Commercial fishermen have a place at the table, most certainly: along with conservationists, Tribes, anglers, and all others with an interest in preserving salmon and steelhead. Commercial fishermen must realize, though, that harvest must become selective and target only specific stocks. Since the gill net is non-selective, it cannot remain a harvest tool, except in very defined and limited areas.

I believe, also, that we must take as strong a position as possible on this and not be too anxious to compromise. There will be a meeting somewhere in the middle, and I don't to lose any more than we already have.

Thanks for this dialog -- it's really helpful,

Cheers,

Eric

Last edited by Eric; 02-06-2007 at 11:09 PM.
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