Bahamian no-DIY thing - Fly Fishing Forum
Bonefish, Tarpon, and other Obsessions Turquoise water, silver demons on the fly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-24-2006, 08:52 AM
josko josko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 563
Bahamian no-DIY thing

Although it looks like the no DIY legislation in the Bahamas did not make it through this time around, I just came across this website: http://www.bahamasconservation.org which looked fine enough until I looked at the list of directors - now it seems to me like the new front for the no-DIY push. Has anybody else had dealings with this organization?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 10-24-2006, 09:48 AM
mdbones mdbones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dorado Beach, Puerto Rico
Posts: 58
Hmmmm

Not sure if it equates to a threat to DIY Bonefishing but I do agree that it is heavily populated by those with financial/self interests in keeping anglers in lodges.

Prescott Smith, Andros (owner), Joel Moxey, Mangrove Cay Andros (owner), Justin Sands- Abaco Island (indendent), Andy Smith-Andros Island (owner), JJ Allen Dames- Exuma (independent), David Pinder- Grand Bahama (independent), Percy Darville- Berry Islands (independent), Prescott Smith- Andros, Kendall Williamson- Acklins & Crooked Island, Patrick Roberts- Abaco (Owner).

While some of the threats listed I agree with the first one seems odd, especially when conservation is the stated purpuse of the group (unless conservation mean's conservation of income).

Vacation homes are being developed into fishing lodges in South Andros, Exuma and Abaco.
Foreign guides without proper permits resulting in revenue loss/threats for local flyfishing industry and potential over fishing
Lodges developed by non-Bahamians further prohibits Bahamians from developing the industry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 10-25-2006, 07:30 PM
distant angler's Avatar
distant angler distant angler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: oregon
Posts: 11
DIY bonefish association

what of the idea of a DIY bonefish association that had a couple of thousand members to help remind those in charge how its members add to the economy
of the islands and elsewhere,do the math,money talks.
keep dues cheap($10-20),some services of limited value,as most associations are,but a voice that could raise the eyebrows of the guys (island economy) folks that potentially could suffer if SPECIAL interests had their way.
i'll direct the effort if two thousand of you send me $15 bucks each(kidding)!
any takers.....i'm not a lodge owner or a guide just DIYer like MOST.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 10-28-2006, 06:04 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,591
Exclusivity has kept flyfishing small for centuries. It's only since the masses have participated that it has grown into a large industry. In restricting casual DIY fishing I believe this commercial interest group (alias conservation group) is only limiting their own potential.

The Bahamian Archipelago is a vast and largely unpopulated region. By controlling general access to waters in a way that goes even beyond the flats that all guides could possibly cover a major source of growth for this trade is eliminated and people will go elsewhere.

Clients of moderate incomes don't get to spending thousands of dollars on a whim. They try bonefishing casually when they get a chance and as they become more affluent, more addicted and less prone to explore on their own they evolve into regular paying customers.

Removing this ability to casually fall in love with the sport is like saying it's illegal to flirt, date and fall in love with someone of your choice- we must immediately proceed to full engagement with authorized lovers only. Just not practical, and for me it will drive me away from the Bahamas entirely if this regulation is put into place.

I will seek a more genuine / less selfish venue, it's a big world out there. For me flyfishing is about enchanment with the pure essence of what this earth has to offer and sometimes that means walking alone on a flat with no name in the middle of nowhere on a barely populated island with no guide services. Am I supposed to not fish there too? Most of the Bahamas is practically deserted.

My main point is that most people who hire guides are doing so because they already intriuged with the previous casual experiences they have had with bonefish. A few casts while on a family vacation for instance - is that illegal?

Taking that away means less people who will go through all that to get there when there are many more accomodating fisheries around the world. They are only limiting their own clientele by prohibiting the casual DIY that leads up to hiring of guides.

.02
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum

Last edited by juro; 10-28-2006 at 06:16 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 10-28-2006, 10:29 AM
Guernseybass Guernseybass is offline
6th Year Apprentice
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hingham Bay, MA
Posts: 386
also what about those that live and work there ( but not in flyfishing) ?

imagine living there, coming home from work and NOT being able to throw a few casts in the evening

( and yes i was hoping to work there oneday - big finance industry in the bahamas )

mark
__________________
Monomoy Tosser
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 10-28-2006, 05:35 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,591
mark,

I'll split the apartment with you. They must need a computer nerd too to track all that finance activity.

The benefits to locals are not just in access, but livelihood. The lodges do not spread the wealth to all of the people on the island but put all the dollars into a few hands - the owners and guides.

When we visited stores and bars they told us we were the first to stop in although visitors have been driven by in lodge vehicles for many years.

One of the most pleasant aspects of DIY is the down to earth interaction with the beautiful people of the Bahamas and the "make your own sunshine" approach to life.
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 10-29-2006, 01:25 AM
mugsy mugsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
Just the groups I've been with or will be with (tickets bought/$$down on accommodations) in the last couple years:

29 bodies total to Acklins and/or Eleuthera and over 300 nights stay. Multiply that out for airline tickets, accommodations, car rentals, boat rentals, food, booze, taxis, trinkets, gasoline, etc. and it aint chump change! That's almost $12,000 in airline tickets for Bahama's air; and at $100/day total expenses per person, that's over $30,000 for daily expenses, for a total of over $40,000 - which is probably quite low given our lifestyle in Eluethera!!! Destinations were chosen for DIY opportunities, and few, if any would have gone if DIY wasn't allowed.

If DYI is outlawed, I think it would be totally appropriate that all of the lodges and guides that push it through be very publicly, personally recognized so they can be properly rewarded for the consequences of their efforts.

Personally, I don't think it will happen and if it does, it won't be in place very long -the consequences are just too obvious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 10-29-2006, 06:35 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Portland, ME.
Posts: 1,586
Prescott Smith, Andros (owner), Joel Moxey, Mangrove Cay Andros (owner), Justin Sands- Abaco Island (indendent), Andy Smith-Andros Island (owner), JJ Allen Dames- Exuma (independent), David Pinder- Grand Bahama (independent), Percy Darville- Berry Islands (independent), Prescott Smith- Andros, Kendall Williamson- Acklins & Crooked Island, Patrick Roberts- Abaco (Owner).


The way to put this to rest is to NEVER book with any of these guys. Tell your friends and spread the word. The notion that DIY anglers pose any kind of threat to those guides and lodges makes it clear that they are lazy and incompetent. They are a proud people (no doubt) and many of them are fine fishermen. But really....afraid a bunch of gringos driving around in a rental cars...what kind of guide takes his clients to the local glory hole? A guide that doesn't know any better or a guide that is too lazy and cheap to motor to a less pressured spot.

And how many people actually DIY? Sure you might see a few pounding the same flats, but I suspect that it is a small amount of people. The Bahamas are huge. Most cannot be accessed by road. These guides are so greedy, that the thought of a couple of people not paying THEM to fish on THIER flats drives them nuts. They could care less that inn keepers and resturants and other local bussineses are making money.

Illegal guides? Anyone here know anyone that has fished with an illegal guide? There must be a ton of them

I have to disagree with Juro's thought that a significant number of people start out by DYI and eventually go to a lodge. I know a few that have gone the other way (lodges, guides, then DYI) but I can't think of anyone who went DIY first. I'm sure that someone out there went that route. But not many. I could totally see people go DIY and guided on the same trip. I suspect that some people are inclined to go DIY and some guided. Juro, you may dream of a guided trip, and your funds might not allow it right now, but I know you well enough that you are as likely to hire a bone fish guide as you are to hire a steelhead guide or a striper guide. Maybe X-mas island or the Keys...or the Dean..but not the Bahamas, Chahtam or the Kowlitz.
That's part of the problem here: The Bahamas guides think that they are somehow the equal to the Keys guides ("they make $450 a day...so should I"). But they don't have the expenses or work ethic to justify the $450.

I know that I will regret this rant
__________________
One cast can change your day...maybe your life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 10-29-2006, 09:31 PM
Bob Bergquist Bob Bergquist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Acklins Winters/Yellowstone River Summers
Posts: 111
The only illegal guiding I have heard about has been from Andros guides, and mostly by Florida boats reef fishing. One was a "mothership" operation working on the west side of S Andros that the guides were proud to say they boarded one night and ran them off by threatening them. Never sure about all the tall tails I hear over there but that was their story.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 10-29-2006, 11:36 PM
mugsy mugsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
I think it depends on the person and the purpose of the trip as to whether a DIY or lodge arrangement is chosen. Some people may never do a DIY because they don't have the time, ability or desire to make it work on their own. Their focus is to have the most opportunities to catch fish that they can get. A good, reputable guide will provide that. A DIY trip simply won't produce the opportunities a good guided trip will unless you (or someone you are with, eh Bob?) has put in a lot of time figuring out the water and the fish. To enjoy DIY you have to enjoy the experience as much as the opportunities at fish. Some DIY folk will always do DIY's, but like me, may well mix in some guided days to shorten the learning curve and up the catch rate; or go on an occasional lodge trip so the wife or others on the trip can enjoy the ammenities. Frequently, the occasional lodge trip is chosen in an area the person is familiar with from past DIY. Obviously, the reverse can be true. Hopefully, as I get older, finances will allow for more lodge opportunites if I so desire; but quite honestly, while finances may effect frequency of trips, I don't think finances are as key to our choices as are our personalities.

In short, if DIY is outlawed the lodge/guided trip customers will continue to use lodges/guides, but the DIY folks will not switch to a guided trip and their infusion of cash to the Bahamas economy will be lost, as will their occasional use of lodges and guides.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:53 PM
josko josko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 563
Whoa, guys, easy!
Whether we like their stance on DIY or not, this group is doing some great things for conservation in the Bahamas. A big problem on Andros is 'Cloroxing' reefs; these guys are on the frontline, dealing with this daily. Also, flats gilnets are not an issue anymore - we can thank the guides federation for that one.
There's a lot of proactive work involving blue holes - cleanup, access, etc. that we can thank the Bahamas Conservation group.
Bahamas has probably the best bonefish guides anywhere - it didn't happen by accident.

As to foreign guides, I'd be amazed if anyone HASN'T seen them, at least if we define 'illegal' by the admittedly strict Bahamian laws on non-Bahamian nationals generating income in the islands.

I think boycotting a group that's doing a lot of good because we don't like their stand on DIY fishing is going a bit too far.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 10-30-2006, 04:11 PM
mugsy mugsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
Outfitters and guides are frequently on the leading edge of conservation, both in knowledge and efforts. They are also generally the most consciencious users of the resource and I truly respect them for that. Unfortunately, trying to limit DIY will detract from those efforts. If their purpose for limiting DYI is to protect the resource and limit negative impacts, then I believe they need to start from a more objective position - identify what impacts, caused by whom, doing what, where, and when and how frequently. They also need to pull together all of the interests involved (travel industry, marinas, fisherpersons, housing, restaurants, tourist industry, government agencies, NGO's, etc) to help quantify the problems, and identify possible solutions. To identify ending DYI as the solution without going through this process simply destroys their credibility.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 10-30-2006, 06:53 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,591
Mugsy makes a good point -

What does DIY have to do with harming the resoucres?

What do guides associations have to do with conservation?
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 10-30-2006, 07:40 PM
Bob Bergquist Bob Bergquist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Acklins Winters/Yellowstone River Summers
Posts: 111
A great example of efforts such as these having unintended consequences is the situation in BC. A bunch of guides and outfitters asked the Government to limit the number of nonresident anglers by requiring them to use guides and pay a per day surcharge of $20 in the name of "conserving" the fishery. Well the government acted and the town of Fernie is hurting all summer, the guides have about 30% of the days they had two years ago and what did it do for conservation? Nothing. All the outfitters are eating their red herring while they cry in their Molson.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 10-30-2006, 08:43 PM
mdbones mdbones is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dorado Beach, Puerto Rico
Posts: 58
Wow - this thread clearly got the juices of many flowing - All on the assumption that this is a group fro pushing an anti- DIY movement. Clearly thats not stated anywhere in the website. Is DIY a threat - I think that its pretty clear that it is, especially for anglers that have developed the skill to catch fish on thier own.

Not many have spent more timre chasing Bones in the Bahamas than I have over the last 6 years and clearly my early years were spent exclusively with guides. As I became more familar with the sport and haibits of Bonefish I have moved away from Bonefishing with a guide. I prefer the solitude of walking a flat from sun up to sundown, and the satisafaction of catching Bonefish on my own. After spending 30 plus days a year on the same island I am confident that I can cover less water but catch just as many fish as I can with a guide (although my day might run an extra 4 - 5 hours longer). So I would be put in the class of angler that started with guides but might fish 30 percent of the time with one now.

I do think the issue of foreign guides is an issue on Andros - Motherships and the group of four keys guides that tend to stake out the North end of the island during the off season clearly infringes on the guides that operate in Andros. Honestly, I think that this is an issue that should be addressed. Either way we can scream all we want - Its a foreign country and they will do what they percieve to be in the best of interest of their constituients (as they should).

Either way its a moot issue with me - a recent move to the NJ/Pa area will limit my days in the Bahmas to 7 or less - I sure hope the Pulaski guides do not try to limit the DIY Salmon and Steelhead fishemerman - then I would be real trouble!

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by josko
Although it looks like the no DIY legislation in the Bahamas did not make it through this time around, I just came across this website: http://www.bahamasconservation.org which looked fine enough until I looked at the list of directors - now it seems to me like the new front for the no-DIY push. Has anybody else had dealings with this organization?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bahamian DIY update josko Bonefish, Tarpon, and other Obsessions 11 12-20-2008 06:54 AM
New Bahamian sportfishing regulations josko Bonefish, Tarpon, and other Obsessions 9 03-04-2007 02:15 PM
Not Such a Good Thing FredA Our Environment 2 04-30-2003 10:45 AM
Sure thing... Fishinimpossible Stripers and Coastal Gamefish 3 05-21-2001 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)