ZEC AGREEMENTS - Page 2 - Fly Fishing Forum
Classic Atlantic Salmon No pursuit rivals salmon rivers, flies & legacy

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  #16  
Old 10-08-2006, 12:19 PM
billg billg is offline
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Anne:

If you are suggesting that the cards I send in for my clients (real people who do not whack salmon) do not have THIER names and addresses then you are again misleading people to pick a fight. Grow up.

For the past 2 years the zec has required names and addresses of all participants of the draws to be filled out or a card is rejected; no one gets special treatment-- it is a rule. For all of the time you psent in the zec office snooping and documenting you should know that.

Also, don't give people the false impression that lots of rods go purposely unused. People cancel trips for a variety of reasons including: health, work, missing flights, and other conflicts. There are methods for reselling rods and I can state that I do the best I can to resell rods 48 hours in advance. There are also occasions where the unused rods never get repurchased.

How do you feel about kids buying rods with no intent of them ever fishing (just taking up a space for another angler)? Is that not an injustiuce as well? We have an old saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones....

Best of luck in 2007 on open waters, limited waters, private club waters, or wherever you and your clients fish. All business for the Gaspe is good business.

Bill Greiner
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  #17  
Old 10-08-2006, 01:47 PM
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Anne ,GG and BG
I'm including the "unused" rods issue as part of a dossier/project that I'm currently working on and hope to present to the Qc. and federal gov't's ,FQSA and ZECs .
Oh and there's an even older expression than "the livin' in glass maisons" proverb
STATUS EST SICIT STALTUS FACIT , or something like that
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2006, 08:46 PM
Green Ghost Green Ghost is offline
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Angry ZEC AGREEMENTS

Please, somebody hear what I am saying.

NO WINTER DRAWINGS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTER's PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!.

ALSO NO 48-HOUR DRAW CARDS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTERS PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!

LET THEM USE THE RODS THEY HAVE BEEN PROVIDED WITH AND THAT IS ALL THE RODS THEY GET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We, the Public , cannot have a chance to win good waters if they allow those who already hold 20 % of the water FOR THE SEASON, to GET MORE WATER FROM THE DRAWING SYSTEM AT ALL , PERIOD!!!!!
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2006, 09:42 PM
billg billg is offline
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Chuck:

First, Who said anyone had 20% of the rods? The rule which allows zecs to sell rods outside of the draw system is referred to as THE 20% RULE. I do not believe anyone has said that any zec, except Grande River, has ever sold 20% of their available rods to anyone. RELAX

Second, if you do not like the fact that a business such as mine can aquire rods AND also participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients then I would suggest that you contact the Quebec Government and gripe to them. LOL.

Third, remember that you as a non-resident are privileged to be able to fish in Quebec; it is not a RIGHT. I know that you and perhaps others may have liked the good ole days where there were few people on the rivers. Those days are over. And, in the good ole days, Quebec taxpayers subsidized your fishing by making up revenue shortfalls within the zec system through grants or subsidies to the zecs losing money. There are roughloy 10,000 resident anglers and a couple of thouseand non-resident anglers who fish salmon each year. At the present time the feeling is that the zecs need to be self-sufficient and not rely on Government handouts to keep the system afloat. Salmon fishing is a PRIVILEGE. The zec waters are governmental waters and owned by the people of Quebec. Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority. Once again here it is: first rights belong to First Nations PERIOD! Then the priority goes to non-aboriginal Quebec residents. Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents.

I know you are dying to know what is in the agreement signed with the Zec Gaspe. 418-368-2324 is a good place to start. If they wish to divulge the info at this time it is their right to do so.

In the case of Grande River, they are selling me 20% of their limited rods for the next few years (as they have for the last few). I will continue to be in their draws as well with no restrictions on the number of cards I submit for my clients. Once the 75-25 rule comes into effect (cannot happen soon enough in my opinion) then there will be no point in sending in cards there because only 5% of the rods each day will be available to non-residents (this equate to 1/2 rod per day and it is impossible to buy 1/2 rod).

The other thing you can do is to show up in Gaspe at the annual meeting and vote against everything. This is an option.

So much for a quiet fall...

Bill Greiner
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  #20  
Old 10-08-2006, 10:22 PM
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Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority


Quote:
participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients

Quote:
Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents


Quote:
my clients (real people who do not whack salmon)


ouf!!
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Last edited by QuebecSporting; 10-09-2006 at 09:52 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2006, 10:36 AM
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Bill
You can count amongst the out of province "doityourselfers"
One of Boston's senior ER surgeons
one New England pharmacist (sorry he own a pharmacutical company)
Four rather famous fly tyers (amongst others)
one reel maker
one slightly famous golfer
one artist
and one teenager who works for a grocery chain and who spends a substantial part of his earnings on Salmon fishing .
One old gent from France who spends three months each summer (as of two years back) on his favourite Gaspe river.
One of my favourite stories about your "doityourselfers " involves my drooling over a skirack loaded with twohanded rods and a museum collection of 5 Vom Hofes and one modern EXPENSIVE North American that we mere mortals dream about. Got to talking with the occupants of the car and and then -----------
cheers
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2006, 11:03 AM
billg billg is offline
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Brian:

I think it is great that folks can come up now and do it on their own, regardless of who they are. I am not sure it will be like that forever but nit is like that for now. Those people have a right to the rivers but in MY OPINION their priority is not the same as the rights of First Nations, Quebec Residents, and Commercial operations that have a presence for 122 days and not just "prime time". Others may have a different view on this.

When I have done my slide presentations across the USin the past, I have always stated at the beginning that Quebec does not currently require the use of outfitters or guides for non-residents. I will no longer be stating this at the slide shows in 2007 as I do not believe it is my responsibility to promote fishing for do it your selfers. Other can do so but the rivers are becoming more and more crowded and it does not make sense to compete against oneself.

Bill Greiner
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2006, 10:44 PM
Green Ghost Green Ghost is offline
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Cool ZEC AGREEMENTS

Just I case anyone out there in cyber space does not know. I have been supporting multiple ZECs in Quebec for 27 years. Not only do I support these ZECs with participation in winter drawings (on as many as 10 rivers per year), but also, I come to fish their waters whether or not I (or my family members) actually win the winter drawings. Furthermore, I also fish the water when it is high, low, no fish or on occasion full of fish.

When you speak of “Privilege” I am also privileged to pay 15 % more to fish the same waters.

All I have been saying and I continue to say is the truth. As a statistical and probabilistic fact is … if you put in more drawing cards then you win more water. That is a mathematical certainty. This is the same mathematical certainty that began the saga in the first place some 3 years ago. Why are all the non –residents winning all these drawings??? It is called statistics.

The entire concept of a fair public drawing has been lost. It is now about the money. More names, more money, means more winnings = the plain truth. This has nothing to do with the pecking orders of who has the right to fish there; this has to do with plain and simple mathematics. More cards = More wins!

What I find most interesting about the facts are that Bill continues to try and say that he is in favor of a 75% / 25 % Resident vs. non-resident split in the draw system. This seems to be despite the fact that the likely average in his camp is 80% non – residents!

I sincerely hope that the ZEC is paying close attention to the posts that have been stated on this board. SUPPOSEDLY they already mailed out the Arrangements that have been made and will DIVULGE to the public exactly what rods have been awarded already and therefore what rods are left for the rest of us to Try and win against the Mathematical and certain statistical Odds if overloading of the drawings is allowed to continue.

I have nothing that I should contact the ZEC for or the Quebec Government for that matter- I think the management of the water has been extremely well done. That is until the overloading of the system became about money and statistics. Instead of an individual attempting to have a fair shot at going on vacation in a beautiful environment that the ZEC System was designed to Promote. It’s NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A ZONE FOR EXPLOITATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will reiterate – If water has been provided in advance, before the draw, in order that they can maintain a business and provide employment, then the details must be disclosed to the public both resident and non-residents. That way, the public (many of which are ZEC members) knows in advance what rods are available to them PRIOR TO the winter drawings.
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  #24  
Old 10-09-2006, 11:26 PM
billg billg is offline
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Chuck:

You bring up a couple of valid points:

First, I was under the impression that the zecs (Gaspe and Pabos) would send out information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors) in with the draw card applications. And, that in this mailing there would also be the info relating to the general meeting. The date of my post in response to yours was in Sept when I was still in Gaspe and that is what I understood at that time.

I have spoken with folks in Quebec who have gotten their draw info and neither is contained in with the cards; the only thing different is the survey relative to May fishing. I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw. I believe that this info needs to be divulged but it is not my responsibility to do so.

To answer one of your questions, some people involved with the zec do read these posts, that you can be assured of. That said I think the best way to communicate with them is via email or phone and not on a bulletin board (they will not respond on a BB).

Next, as stated many times before I am 100% in favor of 75-25. It does not matter that my clients are mostly non-residents. My business will get some rods outside of the draw system through agreements. I will also be participating in the draws with all 3 zecs I do business with and certainly understand that there will be a limit to the number of rods available to any non resident angler (client of an outfitter, guide, or a do it your selfer). No problem here with that; the majority of the rods left (after the ones which go to the First Nations (I think those are the ones you mean when you refer to riparian rods) should go to residents. The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses. As you said you come up even if you do not win in the draws. You are not alone. I am sure you and others do so because the fishing is decent and is not expensive since you can do it without hiring any commercial establishment.

Here is an interesting proposition for the draws: 1 card per angler per river at a cost of $10. Like 75-25, I am 100% behind this as well. How do you feel about 75%-25%? How do you feel about 1 card for $10?

Lastly, I would ask you to define what you mean by overloading draws. The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boat.

And, to be sure, this year one could not fish if the winner did not show up. In days past the extra rod could be used; now it cannot be and is of NO value to anyone. Therefore, it is absurd to think that anyone's name will be entered into a draw who will not fish or does not intend to fish. The rods are of no use to any commercial business otherwise.

So now the issue is whether or not a business has the right to submit draw cards for its clients in the names of its clients; OR whether an individual can submit draw cards and then go through a business. The simple answer is yes; it is a democratic system. If you disagree with this you can attempt to change it. You can do as I suggested; call the zecs and the Government. All the complaining on the internet will change nothing. If you are sucessful in having things go as you wish then great; if not then so be it.

Lastly, as to water costs I would think that non-residents should pay 50-100% more per rod. That is reasonable considering that it is a privilege to fish there and to do so without the need for an outfitter or guide.

Bill Greiner
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2006, 08:03 AM
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The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses.
This is false information!!


Quote:
The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boatand.
This is false information!!



Quote:
I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw
"information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors")


Are you telling us, that the Gaspé Zec will surprise us only after the pre-season draw (after collecting our money) that some spaces will not be available??
That whether we like it or not, it's a done deal??




Ann Smith
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2006, 10:07 AM
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Ann
"this isfalse information " Is this part of the BS that Dave mentions in another thread

HIGH FIVE EVERYONE !!!!
GREEN GHOST check your PM around noon
cheers
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2006, 08:38 PM
wilson wilson is offline
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Gosh, I'd really like to chime in with an opinion or what I knew or didn't know, or what I knew I didn't know, which is a lot, but I don't have enough information here.

Does anyone know if the ZEC publicly states earnings?
What does their balance sheet look like?
Where does the money go or what is it spent on?
How much draw money comes from outside Quebec?
Is it in the 75/25 ratio?
Of the Quebec residents who go into the draw win and do those who win actually pick up their passes and fish?

Forgive all the Q&A but I work for a large Telco and we need to know these things. How much does it cost, where are the costs, what is spent where...and this from a "technical" guy. Knowledge is power and without it you have nothing to base decisions on.

Referencing David's other thread, this is about the salmon and the resource. Do we know that the ZEC is using some of that money to actually help the resource or is it squandered in some way.

It is a privilige to fish there and I find my happiness in the public water. Perhaps I'm missing something in the draws but I'd rather know where my money is going before adding to their funding.

-Chris

PS. Y'all need to drink more wine.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2006, 09:16 PM
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Hello folks,

Ummm... which Dave are you talking about? And what BS are you refering to? Simply curious for now.

If you are refering to me, I would like you to state my full name.

Very soon I will be responding to many of your questions, comments, accusations, thoughts and rants.

I have been quietly sitting by the edge of the pool studying my fly box and I have almost decided which fly to tie on. I can guarantee you all that it is a killer fly!

Guys, Gals, everyone, PLEASE sit back and do like Wilson says, take a few sips of wine and chill out. You guys are killing yourselves with speculation. I can guarantee that it is not as bad as many of you are making it out to be.

As a former and new simple guide, I can tell you that I too am watching very closely what is happening. So far, I have heard so many BS stories and have seen people panicking over hearsay (I have no idea if I spelled that correctly), anyway... like I said, too many of you are too quick to take the fly that is being offered. Stop taking! Bill stop casting! Just kidding all of you. But really, things are not going to change that dramatically and if they do in the future, it will be to the advantage of Quebec anglers. That much I am sure of.

Like I said, I will be delivering my own take on things, BASED ON FACTS, very soon. For whatever it is worth.

Best to all of you,

David

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salar-1
Ann
"this isfalse information " Is this part of the BS that Dave mentions in another thread

HIGH FIVE EVERYONE !!!!
GREEN GHOST check your PM around noon
cheers
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  #29  
Old 10-11-2006, 12:07 AM
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Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers
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  #30  
Old 10-11-2006, 12:07 AM
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Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers
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