Casting in wind - Page 2 - Fly Fishing Forum
Art of Casting Analysis, refinement of the cast

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  #16  
Old 08-09-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
the thumb does not push the rod. Instead the butt of the rod presses against the inside of the forearm which forces the rod to bend more on the power stroke. It throws a very powerful cast and with a positive stop a very tight loop into wind.

One benefit of this backhanded type of cast is that it dramatically increases your backcasting power, which helps your forehand casting significantly when the wind turns around.
The other major benefit: locking the butt against your forearm will prevent you from getting tennis elbow if you spend a lot of time backcasting grain lines.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2006, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
teflon,

I would argue that no cast should ever touch any part of the body, or clothing. It's as simple as keeping the line moving only on the downwind side, hence the need for offhand casting per this discussion.

Not meaning to split hairs on the topic as that is a fine piece of headgear, but on the topic of casting I would stand firm to that, particularly as an instructional note to a new caster to instill the thinking early, etc.
I'd definitely agree. That's why I said "sloppy backcasts" because it happened because of poor technique. After casting for 7 hours my arm was getting tired!
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2006, 03:25 PM
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2006, 11:01 AM
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I think one thing that has been lost in this discussion is that you may start a cast and need to reposition to target fast moving fish. Knowing when you need to drop the cast or make other adjustments only comes with practice and feel in real-life situations. I think this applies most to boating situations where the "ground" is moving underneath you. Saying a cast should never hit your body from an instructional view is one thing but if you spend a good amount of time in a boat chasing fish it will happen. You can only hope to minimize the number of occurances and take appropriate steps to prevent a more serious event, such as wearing eyeware.

Sean
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  #20  
Old 08-10-2006, 11:47 AM
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Sean,

I respectfully disagree. I was using the instructional element as a way to qualify the point but if there's a hard stand to be made on it I believe that there really is no acceptable time that a fly should touch any part of you or your clothing, period.

Having a maneuverable craft below you only increases the options as others with boats have pointed out. I've run boats a lot until just recently when I sold my last one, and in very hairy conditions particularly the north pacific coast for feeder salmon. Those rips would make anything south of the maritimes look mild, in fact they are on lattitude with the maritimes. Setting up is an option that a boat offers that the shore does not.

Change of direction is made with intermediate false casts when overhead or by angular positioning of the line on the water or in the air (e.g. snake roll, Spey casts) and never require a collision. Spey casts do it in one movement with no risk. Hence investigating some of these options is very much an option as is moving the boat.

I do agree completely that eye protection is smart, believe me. I will post some pics of eye injuries one of these days, if you all can stomach them (my brother is an eye surgeon who has dealt with many eye injuries from fishing).

I also agree that in the heat of the moment we do silly things. However I can't accept that these are correct and acceptable, they are in fact IMHO dumb and dangerous and it does well to refine safe tactics in your pursuit of the "Art of Casting".

.02
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  #21  
Old 08-16-2006, 09:55 AM
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Juro,

Yes you can position a boat to fish a rip or even schools of blitzing bass or blues. They stay up long enough to do so. But I have to disagree that these are always valid options when fishing for speedsters which is what I was eluding to. A school of skipjack crashing the surface at 40mph and staying up for 4 or 5 seconds gives you very limited options to get the fly in the mix. Couple that with the fact that you may only get a few shots all day due to boat pressure or just lack of fish and you are going to take a risk to get the fly there. Now of course you will do everything you can to not hit yourself but even the best casters will have mishaps. A very likely scenario is just miscommunication as the angler is expecting the wheelman to turn one way and he goes the other. Unlike from shore being able to cast using either hand is really no help as the console and helmsman are on the other side and you should not cast over them. In this instance, IMO, the best option is a series of water hauls and some chuck and duck. Would I argue this is textbook casting or the correct way to do it. Probably not. But I will say you do what you need to do get tight and I don't care if the cast has a name or not.

Sean
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  #22  
Old 08-16-2006, 10:14 AM
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We don't always do what's right, we sometimes have to do what it takes.

However, that doesn't make it an acceptable approach it just means we do it anyway.

My point is quite simply this - proper casting technique (the point of this section) is to find ways to keep the casting stroke on the downwind side. Period.

I think you are creating an argument where there is none, I also do what it takes fully knowing it's wrong in the heat of the moment. So when I hit myself, I say to myself "self - YOU EEDIOTT!!!".
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  #23  
Old 08-16-2006, 10:41 AM
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Juro,

I don't think I am creating an argument, just discussing casting in the wind. I thought this thread was about dealing with the wind and ways of doing it. I have to disagree that having your cast on the downwind side is always "the right way". The right thing in my opinion is as I stated (getting the fly to the fish.) Using water hauls is an effective means of casting with wind coming into your casting shoulder. I have never taken an official FFF casting lesson so I don't know if it is taught but I think it should be. Yes there is a narrow margin of error with this technique but without it I would have caught far fewer speedsters on the fly. Maybe an on the water session this fall is in order to demonstrate our concepts .

Sean
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  #24  
Old 08-16-2006, 12:34 PM
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Although I can't think of any others, I think the water haul is an exception to your point (depending on the force of the wind that day).

Especially from a water craft like yours. I need more practice let's go.
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  #25  
Old 08-16-2006, 04:09 PM
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whatever it takes . . .

I agree with Sean on this issue . . . do whatever it takes, how ever it takes you, by whatever means, no matter how it looks . . . to get the fly where it needs to be, when it needs to be there. The "McDermott Sling 'n Slay" - call it what you want.
I played a lot of hockey in my youth and knew some great "practice players" who sucked in the heat of the game. Many of the best players were not great skaters, not great shooters . . . but they were always in the right place at the right time and didn't mind taking a hit.
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  #26  
Old 08-16-2006, 04:31 PM
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Hey Alan -

Good to hear from you.

Yeah well your friend and mine changed his tune from "it's ok to hit yourself" to the water haul, which I do use in fact he saw me doing half the day off his transom on Brewster this spring

Of course magnifying load due to friction will help resist the effect of a crosswind, however the maneuver will be limited to side/side (boat in the way and not a target) and limited to shorter lengths of line, preferably with short heads like the T-series, QD, Rio deep sea, etc.

Nothing is more of a water load than a Spey cast, particularly a Skagit cast, however as the line leaves the surface of the water it is still dangerous in wind.

A water haul by definition does not have the pulley wheel component that a Spey cast does, so it would project linearly along the path - provided that point of release was close enough forward so as to not cross the path of the angler while in flight.

So a short tight pull against the surface sounds reasonable regardless of what 'the experts say' yet when I get home I will check what Wulff, Jawarowski et. al. have to say about casting in a cross wind; maybe they feel the water load is the cat's meow.

Once again, I put the fly in my mouth and spit it at the fish if that's the best option however the cast will be significantly more effective if I just load it back and forth in the lee side of the wind.

Another cast talked about a bit is the "belgian" or elliptical cast which draws the backcast out and away to the windward side then comes directly overhead while ducking.

Drifting with the outdrive down puts the nose into the lee thus the backdoor man always gets the crosswind. If not for the center console the backcast would be roomy, makes a panga sound attractive for inshore flycasting.

ok back to the coal mine...
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  #27  
Old 08-16-2006, 08:14 PM
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Sean,

Neither Joan Wulff nor Ed Jaworowski cite the water haul as a means to deal with wind, instead they propose casting backwards in the lee of the wind - yet I do agree with you that it's an effective mechanism from a boat to deal with winds coming onto the casting shoulder as I have practiced this myself often as you may recall even on your boat.

Caveats:

I still maintain that there are certain considerations for those who wish to use this as an alternative to leeward casting:

a) the line must be kept short enough to prevent getting blown into you or the hull after the grip of the water is relieved

b) the line would be best to have a short head length (e.g. QD, Rio Deep Sea, Teeny series, etc)

In 99% of the situations where I have fished my boat before selling it the outdrive drag spins the bow into the lee in any measurable wind and casting from the bow is usually assisted by the wind blowing the line away from the deck and passengers.

The transom angler is the one that suffers from crosswind, and for him casting is either a formality as line can be released by drift or if sight fishing water loading can be an effective tool. I think we even talked about it on your boat, no?

In any case, I think you have a winner here. Without a doubt an approach to consider is water loading in a cross wind for overhead (or sidearm) casting.

As far as rationalizing the occasional bodily hit per your earlier post... well you'll have a much harder time getting me to agree to that under any circumstances!

Great discussion, and thank you I learned a lot from thinking it through.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-2006, 10:05 PM
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Juro,

To be honest we very well may have discussed it that day. I don't recall either way. I do know we saw a lot of big bass with lock jaw. My wife tells me I have a selective memory, maybe she is right .

I don't think I have been perfectly clear. I am not saying its good to hit yourself. I am just saying it will happen. The water haul technique is one way of dealing with wind and as you eluded to there are others, such as casting out a little ways off angle from the target but then bringing the forward cast overhead to bring it back inline. All of these methods I would classify as high risk of hitting yourself. The point I am trying to make is be creative out there. Don't do anything stupid but don't pigeon hole yourself into thinking if it wasn't written in a book or taught at your last casting class that it won't work.

Couple of other points I think are pertinent to this situation:

Keep the false casts to a minimum.

It may be neccessary to utilize the water haul on each cast and possibly on both the forward and back casts.

If using a sinking line you will need to almost start picking up the line before it hits the water to prevent too much tension on the haul.

Be smooth in your delivery and it will be easier to pick up the line.

I have been very fortunate to fish with a number of very talented anglers over the years and have learned a lot each time out. As Alan mentioned one of the common denominators among them was the ability to dial it in when it counts. To me one of the thing that draws me to this game is that challenge of making the cast when it counts. Be it sightfishing or tunoids, any situation where time is of the essence and the conditions demanding will always be the pinnacle of our sport. No knock on those who prefer to sip whisky and ponder how to fool that one lonely trout for a half hour. That just isn't my cup...

Sean

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  #29  
Old 08-16-2006, 11:39 PM
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Sean,

With all due respect you're right I am not clear on what you are trying to say; of course accidents happen but they occur despite what we adopt as guidelines for safety and proper technique. Also, if I agreed with any more zeal that the water haul can be useful from the windward end of a boat then I would resemble a parrot. The two points are separate and to keep blurring them only promotes pointless debate.

So if these two points are kept distinct we are in partial agreement - water load good; yet we can agree to disagree that hitting oneself bad even if it hooks a fish sometimes.

I can't agree that a fish is worth an injury, coming from a family of doctors and frequently discussing (with my brother the eye surgeon) heinous eye injuries from one-time mishaps; a single cast gone bad. In fact there is such a photo on R/T right now; mild compared to some my brother has shown me that he had to operate on.

I agree that a teacher might discuss water loading with shorter lengths of line, appropriate line designs and good technique as an option especially from the windward end of a boat. Even if it's not commonly presented as such. Your idea has a lot of merit.

However IMHO an instructor of any caliber should *never* use the pursuit of a fish as an excuse to compromise safety in casting.

Again the two are distinct points not to be muddied.

It seems we could go on debating this point forever, however I hope I am making myself clear that as long as these two points are not twisted together I have no need for further rebuttal and agree with the casting tactic you proposed.
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Last edited by juro; 08-17-2006 at 12:08 AM.
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2006, 08:05 AM
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Juro,

I agree no need to further discuss. We both agree that hitting yourself is bad.

Sean
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