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Old 07-30-2006, 08:57 AM
HoldTight HoldTight is offline
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Question Low end vice question

Please let me preface this by saying that I am new to fly fishing.

I was reading the thread on fly tying kits and it peaked my interest. So as I was visiting a local Bass Pro Shop here in the Denver area I asked to see their Vise's.
They had a kit with a good selection of tools and materials (specifically for trout flies).It has a vise that they sell for $10 and a video on fly tying all for $50. Sounds like a good deal to me except, what could I expect from the vise? Would it break or not hold the hook after a short time of use?
Seems to me that a kit for $50 would not be a big loss if I decided not to tie flies in the future.

What are your thoughts on a low end vise for a beginner?

Thanks for your help. I am really enjoying learning from reading this forum.

HoldTight...

Last edited by HoldTight; 07-30-2006 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 07-30-2006, 11:33 PM
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teflon_jones teflon_jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldTight
Sounds like a good deal to me except, what could I expect from the vise? Would it break or not hold the hook after a short time of use?
That's exactly what you can expect. It won't even hold the hook well to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldTight
What are your thoughts on a low end vise for a beginner?
I just started tying this past year, and started out with a $75 kit with one of those $10 vises. While it was nice to have the kit with a bunch of different materials, the vise was just horrible and really makes tieing not nearly as pleasant as it could be. I think you're on the right track with figuring on spending $50 to see what happens since it's not a big loss if you hate it. But don't get hung up on the problems you have with the cheap vise! You can buy a more expensive vise and even if you hate it, you can sell it on eBay without losing very much.
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Old 07-30-2006, 11:44 PM
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I started out with a kit. Now I couldn't imagine using any of it - the vise, the tools or the materials... but at the time it was a source of much discovery and an important part of the experience. I got it early in the learning curve instead of learning to flyfish first then getting into tying, so a cheap starter kit was better than not having a kit at all.

Now if you are already a very dedicated flyfisherman past the point of no return and familiar with many favorite fly patterns and the purpose is just to tie your own for your well-established flyfishing addiction, then I would say skip the kit and go ahead; invest in some good equipment.
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Old 07-31-2006, 05:51 AM
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Thumbs up Go see Charlie

I would recommend you go see Charlie Craven at his shop in Arvada. He is one of the best tiers around and will help you select an entry level vise from the many models he has on display. It might well be worth the time to take some lessons to get off on the right foot and not have to do as so many of us have with "un-learning" the bad habits.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:46 AM
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All good ad-vise (pun intended). I think I will walk past the kit and go have a talk with Mr. Craven in Arvada.
The Bass Pro Shop offers a two hour class every Wednesday and Friday on fly tying.
So I think I will take advantage of that also.

Thank you for your replies
HoldTight....
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:51 AM
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One opinion I hold is to avoid BPS. They know squat about flyfishing overall. Find a true flyshop, and don't support mega businesses that squash the fly shops - we lose in the end.
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
One opinion I hold is to avoid BPS. They know squat about flyfishing overall. Find a true flyshop,
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
and don't support mega businesses that squash the fly shops - we lose in the end.
I disagree. In fact I hate this attitude.

Support mega businesses that squash shops that are crap. The sooner a bad shop goes out of business the better. Nothing drives people out of the sport faster than a bad shop.

A decent shop will survive right next door to a BPS if the fly shop is any good, provides services that BPS doesn't, and if the owner is smart enough to work with the folks at BPS to have them send customers who need more help than BPS can provide. In most cases fly shops die because they try to fight a mega business, or worse the internet, rather than adapting...

Getting back to the question...

You can tie perfectly serevicable flies without any vise at all. People did for a LONG time. If you look at some of the old vises they were bigger pieces of junk than the $10 vises you can buy today. If you are careful with it, a $10 is servicable. I tied on a junk vice from Herter's for 30 years.

Having said all that, a nice Renzetti vise is a pleasure to use compared to a $10 piece of junk.
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:28 AM
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Baldmountain -

I talk to a lot of good flyshop owners and have for years, many who have gone under.

You don't have to be a bad shop to go under due to big business competition.

The fault in your logic is that you assume all mega business will work with a flyshop. You pointed out internet, internet businesses will not strike any cooperative deals with any local flyshops even if they are superb shops. Your statement is in itself a bit of a contradiction.

Cabelas will not work with small local businesses.

My perspective comes from the views of shop owners with whom I speak.

Also your voicing "I hate this attitude" implies that you are seeing things from a somewhat personal and subjective perspective. I am unsure as to how operative a role one consumer's personal like or dislike plays in these cases.

However, as always we are entitiled to opinions.


Holdtight -

As I metioned above, if you are already knowledgable on flyfishing and fly patterns, commited to flyfishing it might be wise to go ahead and invest in the best you can afford. Many of us would be happy to suggest components to check out - vises, tools etc.

But if you are in a phase of discovery in flyfishing as well as tying, then a kit is a great toolkit for you to experiment and learn the basics of creating your own stuff, a huge part of the magic of flyfishing.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:48 AM
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One of the other activities I do is archery. You hear even more wailing about how the internet is killing their business in archery. But then you hear about shops who are doing a booming business. In one case the shop shared a parking lot with I believe a Bass Pro Shops, (it may have been a Dick's Sporting goods), in any case it was some large shop. The owner went and talked to the manager of the big shop and came to an agreement that the big shop would send people they couldn't help next door. The small shop is doing well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
Baldmountain -

I talk to a lot of good flyshop owners and have for years, many who have gone under.

You don't have to be a bad shop to go under due to big business competition.
Sure you do. If you ignore the marketplace in any business you are in big trouble. The marketplace will support small shops IF they provide services that the big shops don't AND the marketplace wants them. If the small shop doesn't provide any service beyond what the big shops provide they are going to get killed. (And they do!)

A good example of this is convenience stores vs big super market. Convenience stores continue to do well because they provide faster service, in many cases sell gasoline or other products supermarkets don't and are open when supermarkets aren't. They adapt to the marketplace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
The fault in your logic is that you assume all mega business will work with a flyshop. You pointed out internet, internet businesses will not strike any cooperative deals with any local flyshops even if they are superb shops. Your statement is in itself a bit of a contradiction.

Cabelas will not work with small local businesses.
Fine, but that still doesn't stop the shop from providing services that Cabelas doesn't. My issue is that you expect me to subsidize a business because they aren't willing to adapt to competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
Also your voicing "I hate this attitude" implies that you are seeing things from a somewhat personal and subjective perspective. I am unsure as to how operative a role one consumer's personal like or dislike plays in these cases.
Nah, just being a curmudgeon today.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:51 PM
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You raise good points, it's important to learn to survive even though larger species move into the habitat. That is the way of the world and offering what the other does not is a good way to differentiate if sales can keep you alive long enough.

The tough part is that in the end it boils down to sales and margin, and maybe that's why so many shops are closing down. Call me a romantic, but the day the local flyshop fades away is a sad day indeed.

Since I've yet to meet anyone who knew squat about flyfishing in a megastore, I do like to subsidize flyshops. However to your point it does mean there is opportunity for those who adapt.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
Call me a romantic, but the day the local flyshop fades away is a sad day indeed.
I agree. I still like to wander around the local shops and pick up a few items here and there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
Since I've yet to meet anyone who knew squat about flyfishing in a megastore, I do like to subsidize flyshops.
Again, I agree, and me too.
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