Gaspe ZEC's closed - Fly Fishing Forum
Classic Atlantic Salmon No pursuit rivals salmon rivers, flies & legacy

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  #1  
Old 05-06-2006, 09:16 AM
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Gaspe ZEC's closed

As of yesterday the Grand Gaspe, Bonaventure and Petite Cascapedia ZECs are closed pending an agreement on the added outfitter rods. Since the Qc. gov't doesn't wish to listen to the will of Quebecers this might take quite a while.
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2006, 10:27 AM
billg billg is offline
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For those who are heading to the Gaspe there is nothing to be concerned about relative to the 3 zecs closing their doors. The rivers will open in a few weeks and it will be business as usual in terms of passes, etc.

The zecs have been threatening to "turn in their keys" to the rivers for a few months and while it is a bit suprising it was not unexpected.

I have heard that the 3 zec presidents are to meet this weekend (today) with the Minister and this whole issue should be resolved once and for all in a couple of days. Whether or not the board of directors or the general managers remain the same or they are steadfast in their position to walk away is not going to effect the fishing season. If the government needs to manage the rivers for all or part of the season I am sure they will do so.

The rivers are intended to be accessible for Quebec Anglers, first and foremost, and then for commercial exploitation by all anglers. I am extremely confident that this will be the case in a couple of weeks. The bottom line is that the rivers (the public portions) are the property of Quebec and the Government delagated authority to local groups to manage the rivers. Ultimately the management and authority relative to the rivers rests with the Government.

I am sure that there will be more news in the next 72 hours and then everyone will know what to expect beginning June 1.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters
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Old 05-06-2006, 06:01 PM
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They actually met this A.M. and corbeil will make his decision known on the 9th May.
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Old 05-06-2006, 06:19 PM
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I read that on the Radio Canada website a short while ago. It is hard to say what will happen on May 9th but the important thing is that, no matter what happens, resident and non-resident anglers will not have to worry about the waters they have reserved and the trips they have planned. It will be business as usual on the rivers for all anglers.

Bill
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:24 AM
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Corbeil's report is in(out?) and 100 pork producers are demonstrating in Notre Dame du lac ! Speaking of pork, John Boorman will be filming a sequel this summer in Gaspe . working title of the film "The Cahulawassee River Rump Roast"
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:00 AM
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Anyone like to make public the original proposals that the three (two) outfitters made ?
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Old 05-11-2006, 04:26 PM
LONGBELLY LONGBELLY is offline
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I have to disagree with billg on this point. If the outfitters get there way we will have to fish with extra rods in the limited zones. In my book this is somthing "to be concerned about". We enterd the winter draw and paid for the water we won under the idea that we would be fishing with a certain number of rods on these zones. Now that may change because of some greedy scus buckets. I think we should be compensated for this if it happens.
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Old 05-11-2006, 04:42 PM
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Longbelly:

I presume you did not pay for your rods until sometime AFTER the middle of November which is when the phone calls were made. Between the time of the draw and the time of the phone calls the zec sent letters out to the winners and the letters stated that there could be rods added in sectors 4, 6, and 9 and that the zec was opposed to the Government doing this. They warned about the possibility because they knew rods would be added and that allowed people such as yourself to decide whether or not to pay for your reservations. If you overlooked that or ignored it that is out of anyone's control. Intellectual honesty is something which your post is lacking.

The rods that were imposed were by the Government; we didn't "get our way". The three of us would have prefered good faith negotiations with the zecs but that never happened. Whether you agree with what is going on our not is up to you. If you don't like it you can certainly call up the Ministers office.

I will state again what I have stated before: Access to the salmon rivers of Quebec is prioritized like this
1) First Nations
2) Quebec residents
3) Outfitters with licenses and commercial authorizations issued by the Government of Quebec
4) Guides with commercial authorizations
5) Non-resident anglers

As of now there is no rules requiring non-residents to go through outfitters or guides. That may or may not change. In the meantime, if you don't like where you fit priority-wise then either move to Quebec or go to Nova Scotia for your salmon fishing.

Bill Greiner
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:30 PM
LONGBELLY LONGBELLY is offline
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Oooooouuu - Hit a nerve, did I?
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Last edited by LONGBELLY; 05-11-2006 at 05:34 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-11-2006, 05:39 PM
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Longbelly:

Nope; just keeping things intellectually honest with this topic. There is plenty of mis-information and speculation that is out there right now and I have no problem with people disagreeing with the position of the Government and accessibility for outfitters. I also have no problem if people disagree with the 75-25 rule which is just around the corner as well. People need to be factually informed; simple as that.

Bill Greiner
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:46 PM
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Bill
There MUST a have been a lot of serious negotiating done because Glen LeGrand mentioned yesterday that the three outfitters had lost a lot in the interim.SOOOOO since there's a lot of "misinformaion" out there and negotiations are now over, may I/we ask what were your original demands/requests ?
BTW IMHO the75/25 thingy IF it's around the corner it's a hell of away down the next road !
Hey Ben, I know the situation IS f%%$$#ing frustating and I am certainly NOT one for PCness , so befoe typing "IN WITH GOOD AIR OUT WITH THE BAD" repeat about 5 or 6 times and THEN start typing
Cheers
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:41 PM
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Hi Brian:

I had sent you a private note the other day about the last Table Saumon; did you get it? That was an interesting meeting which I am glad I did not attend.

Let's start with 75-25. For the record, I stand 100% behind it and have said so ever since it was discussed at the 2nd Table Saumon in October 2004. It is unfortunate that it has progressed slower than it should have; I have expressed my feelings about that as well. I am confident that it will be in place over the next few months and the November 1, 2006 draws will abide by it.

Now about the bigger picture. The Government has made it clear time and time again (as have the local leaders; mayors of Gaspe, Perce, and Bonaventure) that outfitters are absolutely necessary for economic development of the region. They (Provincial and Local Governments) cannot afford to lose either the direct jobs we represent, the indirect jobs we represent, or the economic spin-off associated with our businesses.

That said, the draw system which had been in place for many years and had evolved a bit from the first days of the zecs, needed to change. Changing the system meant that rods which outfitters could count on in the past (those which enable us to operate our businesses-- it was done legally and within the system; this has been publicly acknowledged by the Government 2 years ago) would no longer be able to be obtained as had been the case in the past. Consequently, there was a prejudice which resulted from this impending change in the draw regulations.

Originally, we were told we would get X number of rods per day. As time went on the agreed upon position was that the outfitters would only be given the number of rods that had been gotten via the system and that would no longer be able to be obtained when the new regulations were put in place. So, X got cut. What if the rules changed and there was no provision for rods; simple, that amounted to a taking of a business. Compensating 3 outfitters would certainly not break the Government of Quebec; however, replacing the jobs would be difficult, if not impossible in the economically depressed region of the Gaspe.

All along the zecs had been told to negotiate in good faith with the 3 outfitters. They refused. Not one of us ever had a sit down negotiating meeting with any of the zecs, despite consensus at the Table Saumon from the FQSA (Quebec Angler's Association), The Outfitters Association, The Quebec Wild Life Federation, and of course the First Nations to negotiate a solution for the outfitters that also balanced accessibility for everyone. The 20% regulation allows this to happen.

By the time November 2005 came along, the final number of rods to be allocated was determined for the 3 outfitters. I can assure you that the number for the 3 outfitters is not only less than what was originally discussed; the number of rods is less than the actual number of rods that was obtained through the former draw system. This should not be overlooked. When Glen talks about water and wine mixing it is because we would have received more rods in the old system than we would be getting in the future; something that was never on the table. This was utlimately accepted by the outfitters.

Again, the zecs were asked and encouraged to negotiate but they never did. Sure, a proposal was given to me (a non-negotiable proposal) from Gaspe last summer which had rods in early June and then August and September. Cost of the rods: bewteen $250 and $500 each. What sectors? Dartmouth 2 in Sept; York 6 in August; get the idea here; not a negotiation and certainly not good faith.

Where do things stand now? Supposedly the zecs have walked away. But, there were still discussions and "negotiations" going on this afternoon as reported on the radio. The position of the zecs has always been take it or we will go and play in our sand box. Well, maybe not a sand box but the pattern is clear about their intent to negotiate accessibility in the best interest of everyone. They make up their own rules to suit themselves (another topic for another day.... ST Jean Pavillion, White House, etc).

What will happen? We will have to wait and see. The final number of rods will likely not change as the season is a couple of weeks away and the 3 outfitters received official letters in December, 2005 with exact rod totals, sectors, and dates. Trips and packages were sold based upon the good faith of what was put forth from the Government in those 3 letters. That is not to say that the outfitters have not re-looked at things and are not willing to look at certain modifications where possible. We cannot and will not accept anything that would be detrimental to, or jeopardize out businesses. You will have to wait a tad bit longer for specifics.

Long term solution is relatively easy and has NO impact on the public whatsoever. In fact, given the change in the draw MORE water will be available to the public. The 75-25 may impact things for non-residents but, as I stated above, there is a prioritization of who has a "right" to the rivers in Quebec. One last point about the 75-25 is that it should have been part of the regulation change and the accessibility for outfitters and was not. This is a total package/plan that ultimately will see all 3 pieces (maybe a 4th!) put into place.

People may or may not like what is happening in world of salmon in Quebec. Salmon are first and foremost a precious resource. This has been lost in the 2 years of the Table Saumon. The fact that the resource is in decent shape allows for recreational activity and ecomonic development. Without the 3 outfitters none of the 3 zecs could operate in the black. In the old days the Government subsidizede the zecs when they operated in the red. That is not an option anymore. We heard in Gaspe in February that the zec was $10,000 lighter in draw reveunes than last year and that they were contemplating laying off an employee; this was stated by the President at the meeting. That $10,000 was the same amount that I cut back on due to the rule change. Don't think for a minute that the zecs were not aware of how some of the rods were obtained by outfitters. Let's just say that the zecs were "dumb as a fox" when it came to this!

I do not know if I answered your questions Brian, but what I have given is all I can give for now. I am hopeful that more will be announced shortly.

Bill Greiner
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:22 PM
Salar89 Salar89 is offline
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if you get your rods, will you be fishing them, or will you be doing as you always have,? buying them and not fishing them? For the 2 last seasons you were holding 4 - 6 rods in sectors (all paid) and no one actually fishing. Did the mayors know this?
Will you be dropping them and cutting our chances in the 48hr draws as usual?
while leaving your paid rods (empty?)

Can you confirm to us and the mayors your waters will not go to waste?

vince

Quote:
Without the 3 outfitters none of the 3 zecs could operate in the black
meaning?
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:44 PM
billg billg is offline
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Hello Vince (QS):

Didn't you have a post removed because of your IP address being the same as another useron this board?

Now that you have entered the discussion let me ask you this:

1) Can you guess who would buy up rods and not use them to discourage people from fishing in Gaspe say in 2002 and 2003? By the way, you would be suprised how many days are sold in Gaspe every year to young anglers (under 18) for half price and the young anglers never show up. Talk about cheating a system.

2) Can you guess who thinks it is neat to park cars on the road by pools to discourage anglers from going to the pools so as to keep them for later in the day?

3) Right now Malbaie River Outfitters, Auberge Saumonier, The St. Jean Salmon Fishing Club, and Pourvoirie Beausejour hold Outfitting licenses from the Government of Quebec to operate on the York, Dartmouth, and St. Jean Rivers. Do YOU support additional outfitter(s) on these 3 rivers so that there might be even more anglers than the past couple of years?

I was expecting a s*$# stirring like this; one likes to play in s*$# when one lives in s*$# all of the time!

Have a nice day and see you soon!

Bill Greiner
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  #15  
Old 05-12-2006, 06:40 AM
LONGBELLY LONGBELLY is offline
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Mr. Griner,

That is quite the attitude you have. If I was looking for an outfitter to use (and I am) you would have soured me on the idea. I express a simple opinion and you tell me if I donít like it, donít come to Quebec? Is that helping there economy? I donít think so.

And unlike you I am not a long winded politician so that is all I have to say on the subject.
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