Gaspe ZEC Meeting - Fly Fishing Forum
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:23 PM
salar 56 salar 56 is offline
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Gaspe ZEC Meeting

I just received a letter from the Gaspe ZEC this week that states that there will be a meeting for members on February 13, 2006. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the additional rods that have been alotted by the Quebec Government to Malbaie River Outfitters on the limited sectors of the York River. I commend the Gaspe ZEC's opposition to these added rods and also to the new regulation that requires the primary rod winner in a limited rod sector to be present in order for the secondary rod to be issued. I am sure this will cut back tremendously on the abuses that have taken place in the past. Added rods to the limited sectors of the York River in my opinion, would be a big mistake and would greatly compromise the integrity of these sectors. Limiting the number of rods in these zones is what makes them so unique and gives salmon anglers an opportunity to experience a stretch of river with very little competition for the pools. For this priviledge anglers not only have to win a lottery to gain access to these zones but also pay a higher rod fee. Adding even two rods to these sectors would have a negative impact on the overall experience. I can only hope that the Gaspe ZEC along with it's members will be able to find a way to have these additional rods taken away and to restore these limited zones back to the way they have been for so many years.

Jim
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2006, 08:07 AM
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Jim
Superb and clearly stated post ! No-one but NO -ONE can argue otherwise !
Cheers
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:23 PM
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I also agree. The Gaspe ZEC should be applauded for trying to keep a quality experience for its clients. Lets hope everything works out in there favor.

Charlie.
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:39 PM
Salar89 Salar89 is offline
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Salar56,
I received 2 letters since Novemb...

If I understand correctly are we saying?
pre-reserve rods =
Instead of 8. now 10 in zone 4 ?
Instead of 6, now 8 in zone 6 ?
Instead of 2, now 4 in zone 12 ?

Thanks

Vince

Last edited by Salar89; 02-09-2006 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:04 AM
abcd abcd is offline
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I hope they win but if in the end the ZEC is forced to knuckle under to FAPAQ, which is what I expect will happen, I hope they think hard about what to charge for the exclusive rods. Or, maybe the ZECs don't have control over the rates either.

The two reserved rods per sector will obviously be worth much, much more than rods that have to be won in a lottery. Maybe something like 10x the cost of a lottery rod might be a place to start, 100x is probably too much. This would at least improve their finances which could be used for conservation of the resource.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:29 PM
abcd abcd is offline
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More thoughts.

I reckon that a big reason that Gaspe salmon fishing is accessible to so many Quebec residents via the ZEC system is because the system is subsidized by the province through provincial taxes.

It is a fact that outfitters do spin off incidental benefits to the local economy through employing local people, bringing in tourists, paying corporate and personal taxes, etc. However, they are private businesses whose top priority is to make profits. Nothing wrong with that; in fact Gaspe probably needs and wants many more profitable businesses of all types.

But a question that should be asked by Quebeckers is whether they should be subsidizing private businesses that are profitable. That is what Quebeckers will be doing by providing exclusive rods at current ZEC rates to outfitters. Or, should the outfitters be required instead to pay fair market value for their reserved rods. The answer might well be that yes, subsidizing them is justified because the benefits they provide outweigh the costs in money, in less accessibility for others and in degradation of the fishing experience for all. All sorts of businesses big and small that couldn't or even shouldn't exist are subsidized by governments so that wouldn't be something new.

But if it is decided that no, an outfitter ought to have a business plan that includes paying market value to the ZEC for his rods what might that mean? Note that if the outfitter gets his two rods per sector, the value of his business increases because he then will have essentially private water to offer his clients and could charge more. True market value can only be determined by an auction and lease process that is not going to happen in Gaspe – there was no competition, the rods have been arbitrarily awarded in what to an outsider might have all the earmarks of a backroom deal.

I am assuming that the ZEC has no say in the matter and the two rods will be provided as ordered but that they still have some say on the rates. Absent an auction, a comparison to peer rivers might be the only defendable way for the ZEC to determine a fair selling price for the private rods and avoid adding to the foul odour. The York for example, might be considered as high a quality river, in beauty, catch rate, desirability as a destination, etc., as many exclusive rivers in Scotland or Iceland – it probably is. In that case, the outfitter’s clients should arguably pay a comparable price for the rods.

Last edited by abcd; 02-10-2006 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:47 PM
Salar89 Salar89 is offline
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Interesting...

The zec employees are calling to make sure we are present and vote against these extra rods..

i got my calll, did you?

Vince

abcd.....
Quote:
~In that case, the outfitter’s clients should arguably pay a comparable price for the rods.]]
No...I think adding extra rods is not worth it and a rip off to Outfitter clients. Why pay $125.00+ ( or even more) when the angler in the same pool is paying $79.00 CAD??
Same rules for everyone, No?? Adding extra rods is a bad deal and certainly not exclusive waters.

actually it's a raw deal......... hope you will re-consider your vote on the 13th!!

Last edited by Salar89; 02-10-2006 at 10:47 PM.
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  #8  
Old 02-11-2006, 05:11 AM
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Of course private rods on the York are a terrible idea. I am not totally sure how things work but I thought it was the ZEC's mandate to manage the river. From the original post, it sounds as if the ZEC has been overruled by someone higher up. If the ZEC's bosses have decided to give rods away does it have a choice to not comply? It is only little Gaspe and there will be no Gomery inquiry but something sure doesn’t smell right. Is the name of the person who made the decision to give the rods away and gave the order known? Was it a low-level bureaucrat or an elected politician? Was the decision made locally or in Quebec City?

If it happens, the outfitter is getting something very, very valuable for next to nothing and without having to compete for it. He must be laughing. The people of Quebec subsidize Quebec anglers through the ZEC system by the difference between what the ZEC charges and the income that leases would bring to the province if the York was a private river. There is a big, big scarcity value to salmon fishing around the world and I can’t even imagine what one of the top rivers on the planet, which the York is, would be worth in private hands. Arguably, the outfitter's business plan should be viable within the ZEC system as it exists or he should not be in business. It is not clear why the government is choosing to do him favours. Maybe you should ask your government.

I fished the York last year but I didn’t receive a letter. If I had a vote, I would definitely vote against privatization. But I don’t understand why we (you) are voting, can the ZEC actually reject a government edict by a vote of its members? If I understand the original post correctly, the ZEC has received just such an order.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salar89
Interesting...

The zec employees are calling to make sure we are present and vote against these extra rods..

i got my calll, did you?

Vince

abcd.....


No...I think adding extra rods is not worth it and a rip off to Outfitter clients. Why pay $125.00+ ( or even more) when the angler in the same pool is paying $79.00 CAD??
Same rules for everyone, No?? Adding extra rods is a bad deal and certainly not exclusive waters.

actually it's a raw deal......... hope you will re-consider your vote on the 13th!!

Last edited by abcd; 02-11-2006 at 05:40 AM.
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  #9  
Old 02-11-2006, 11:57 AM
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Looking forward to the end of this Saga...

Ann
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  #10  
Old 02-11-2006, 11:59 AM
abcd abcd is offline
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And another thing.

I don’t know the history of the York but likely at one time there were private rights owners and leaseholders who give up their fishings, probably unwillingly, by either being bought out or having their leases terminated in order for the government to create the ZECs. I understand that there was even one owner who voluntarily donated his waters to the government for the public good. If the current government now goes back and gives private rights, which the two exclusive rods per sector in reality are, to an outfitter, it is a serious breach of trust of those original owners who sacrificed their private rights for public access. It’s just not fair.

Everyone who lives in Quebec should talk to their elected representative to make their feelings known and find out what the his or her position is on the matter.

Last edited by abcd; 02-11-2006 at 12:09 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-12-2006, 10:58 AM
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status est sicit stultus facit
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2006, 03:35 PM
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ABCD

ABCD

I am wondreing one thing

I would like for you to tell us if you are a QUEBEC RESIDENT or a non resident

who are you

I wonder who is hiding behind your handle

Jocelin

Last edited by Manitou; 02-12-2006 at 03:39 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2006, 06:25 PM
salar 56 salar 56 is offline
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Vince:

Starting June 1, 2006 four rods will be added to the limited sectors of the York River. These rods will alternate each day (example, June 1, two rods will be added to sectors four and six, then June 2, those rods will move to Zone 9 and
12. This will continue until June 21. Starting June 22, two rods will be added to Zone 9 and then June 23 move to Zone 12. It will alternate each day until July
27, 2006.)

I have already mentioned how I feel these added rods will have a negative impact on the overall experience, but I also see it becoming an equality issue. Is it fair that on the day added rods are in a Zone that the original rods have to deal with the added competition when the day before the anglers did not. Also, the added rods fees for the original anglers are all the same each day within a Zone. Why should the anglers in the Zone with the added rods pay the same fee?

I am not sure what person is responsible for adding these rods, but did they take into consideration the many salmon anglers that have been calling the York River their home for so many years? Most, if not all, alot longer than any outfitter has been in operation on this same river.

It would be nice to hear from the owner of Malbaie River Outfitters on this subject and why they feel they deserve these added rods.

Jim
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:23 AM
Green Ghost Green Ghost is offline
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We are talking about an extra 4 rods during the first portion of the season and 2 rods later in the season. The word "private " rods should not be mistaken; there is already too much competition for the good pools in Zone 4, 6 and 9 to begin with. Those people using the Malbaie rods would have to leave the lodge by 2 am to get on either Zone 4, 6, or 9 to have a chance at being the first fly through the pool. Later on those same folks will be rotation fishing in Keg for example.

They are not paying a small sum to stay and fish through an outfitter. The rods are the cheapest portions of these fees. They are paying for a lodge with food, a guide and transportation. The rods are only 13-20% of the there total price for one day. (At $100 per each rod you can do the math and figure out what they are paying per day). They are paying roughly 4 times as much money to use an outfitter to get the same rotation rules and competition the rest of us have and they need to drive farther to do it.

I do not begrudge the outfitter for trying to make a business. The clients will realize in time that they are virtually getting NOTHING exclusive in the form of fishing rights. (With the exception of zone 12)

I strongly support the ZEC for fighting back against the minister to keep the number of rods as they have been for many years. The number of rods in these zones in low water has historically been a problem but is part of the game. You roll the dice on the weather, water levels, fresh fish and level of competition. I am not afraid to compete with an outfitter or a guide. I can tell you I will be on the water earlier and later than the outfitter and their clients.

I am against the overloading of the draw buy one individual and something should be done to prevent this. I would not be opposed to giving the outfitter 2-4 rods a day from the beginning of the season to the end on a rotational basis just to keep that outfitters clients and names out of the pre-season and 48 hours drawings.

By the way, Just so everyone is viewing it on a level the playing field, you should all be aware that the same outfitter fishes far more that just the York. That the Dartmouth, Grande River, St. Jean, Pabos (3 rivers) and Malbaie Rivers are all Fished out of this same camp. Exclusive Fishing Rights throughout the season are already booked on most of these rivers under the same lodge.

That is one of the reasons why I cannot understand that the minister would want the ZEC/York to give into extra Rods. You would think that they already have more water than they can fish.

Just think of it - 16 rods per week at Approximately 500 per day per Rod x 7 days a week = $56,000 per week. Do you think that they are making any profit?? My guess is that it actually costs more than that per rod.

It is not about the money, it is about the principal - They have too many rods already, why should the ZEC give them any more?????

Vote with the ZEC in any way you can, E-mail, Phone or In person against extra rods on the YORK.
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  #15  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:33 AM
chromer chromer is offline
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I have been following from the left coast because I dream of coming to fish the Gaspe soon, hopefully next year (2007).

Thank you for getting involved to protect this fishery, I owe you guys!
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