Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs - Fly Fishing Forum
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:00 PM
Earle Fletcher Earle Fletcher is offline
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Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs

I understand starting in 2007, the Quebec ZEC's preseason draws for salmon fishing in their controlled sectors will be awarded on a 75% Quebec resident and a 25% rest of the world basis. Quebec outfitters will also be granted a certain amount of rods in these controlled sectors too. For us nonresidents, it doesn't make these preseason draws too attractive. I wonder if the 48 hour draws will be awarded on the same basis? Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool.
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:31 PM
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Earle
You've got it wrong !
I believe you ARE aware from where and how the 75/25% thing got started and why it did . If not ,dig into the archives here and SAOL. The outfitter thing ONLY applies to a certain very few sectors ,and I believe, certain days on three rivers,The York ,Bonaventure and Petite Cascapedia. IMHO (and quite a few others ) THERE AIN'T EXTRA ROOM on the e(a?)ffected sectors on either the York or the Bonnie. As for the Petite, the outfitter that will have the right there ,could easily double his clientele from 2 to 4 on the sector without any problem.
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earle Fletcher
Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool.
Free for all good idea? I think not.
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Old 01-11-2006, 07:28 AM
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I would like to understand this issue a little clearer...

first of all it sounds like only "controlled sectors" are affected; what percentage of the good water in Gaspe does this represent? Or maybe the question is what percentage of each river's sector allocation is subject to 75% resident draws?

Secondly, how does 'free for all' apply to this favored draw for the subset of water? Do you refer to the fact that residents kill their salmon?

thanks in advance
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:36 AM
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A Book By It's Cover

O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

I would welcome a 25/75 split as a non-resident. If you look at this year's draws you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

The York, Dartmouth and St. Jean are somewhat higher, not much, because some very good business people have promoted the economy of their hometown. This has put a greater ratio of ballots in the draw from outsiders. I hope all the good people of Gaspe understand this.

I do not think this would ever happen because it would mean that just about all the outsiders who apply would be accepted. The fact is that anglers from Quebec support the draws in far greater numbers. I have seen stranger things happen in Quebec and would not be surprised at the result.

As far as the Outfitters are concerned, they deserve the rights to fish good water all the time. If you think about it, the government of Quebec has sold them something called a licence. Should they then have to fight for the right sell what is already public. They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. The total number of rods per day for all the Salmon outtfiters in Quebec on all the rivers in Quebec total about 30 with most sharing a guide and boat. I don't see the problem here.

I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.
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Old 01-11-2006, 11:02 AM
Earle Fletcher Earle Fletcher is offline
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To answer a couple of the questions that have be raised: The Matane River ZEC does not have a preseason draw. You pay your daily rod fee and you can fish any pool under their jurisdiction. On the best pools, you may have to share (rotation) with 20 other fishermen, but that's the way they do it. They also lose out on the money the preseason draws generate for the local ZEC's. The preseason draws are for the best pools/sectors for a limited number of rods, and if you are lucky, you are in for a quality Atlantic Salmon fishing experience for a very reasonalble price. The basis for the 75/25 rumor is an article, "Winds of Change" on page 72 of the latest Atlantic Salmon Journal and Bruce Patterson's post on his "Go Gaspe" website stating this change was going into effect next year.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:26 PM
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The 75 % to 25% split is only proposed for next year and not accepted yet by the ZECs.

The Grande Cascapedia used to use a 90% resident and 10 % NR split (this may still be the practice) This certainly was not a fair deal for non-residents.

The ZEC Gaspe has always defended their right to hold a fair public drawing non-residents and residents equally.

Here is my Opinion and how we got to where we are and where we may be going.

In 2004, Outfitters overloaded the drawing to the tune of some 4,000 cards in the winter draw out of around 7,000 total cards. Since non- residents are a majority of those using an outfitter, there was a greater than 50 % chance that a non-resident won a winter reservation.

Residents complained about the results. Too Many Non-resident winners. Add to this that the same outfitter purchased 20 % of the rods throughout the season on some other rivers and a portion of those in ZEC Gaspe, The Result - far too many Non resident winners.

In 2005, the ZEC changed the rules somewhat for the winter reservation system by forcing the actual winners (by name) to fish the days they had won and not there partners while they might be somewhere else fishing. Thereby all rods must be fished and "selective" zone fishing and overloading of the winter drawing with "nameless" non-resident winners was reduced but probably not eliminated.

This year the outfitters were awarded a small percentage of the winter reservations?? Not really, they were awarded extra rods on certain sectors of one river throughout the season during specific periods. Were these rods awarded because the outfitter was unwilling to enter the drawing with no gaurantess on whom would fish and when?? No not really, The outfitter was awarded rods because the outfitter has a right to have a business and provides some local jobs for running the camp (guides, cooks, etc). The govenment minister made that decision and forced the ZEC Gaspe to add the rods despite their argument that they should be able to manage their river as they always have. Result - More non-residents in certain zones on a rotational basis.

I have heard rumors that ther is a proposal that all non-residents will need to use an outfitter in the future. Nobody wants that either - especially the do-it-yourself non-residnets that have been supporting the ZEC for 25 years +/- and that have learned how to play the game and where to be and when. Like ME

I have two recommendations for consideration:

1) Allow the outfitter to have a percentage of the river reservations throughout the season without participation in the winter drawing. That means completely remove all of the outfitters clients from the winter reservation. ( This will automatically eliminate a lot of non-residents) This also will improve greatly the chances that a RESIDENT wins the winter reservations. This will also increase the chances that a non-resident "do it yourself" (non-outfitter) fisherman has to win.

2) Keep the Zec public drawing just that - a fair and honest drawing that gives equal chance to the public, non-resdient and resident anglers equally. !! (you know us, we are the minority, the little guy, the underdog).

Should the ZEC adopt a policy that discriminates against non-residents by endorsing the 75% to 25% split; it is clear that they also choose to forfeit the extra revenues: 15% surcharge on purchased water for a non-resident, the necessary travel expenditures to the community for Hotels, Gasoline, Groceries, Flies, Beer, TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that the non resident has to pay.

The outfitter wants a business, give it to them, just do not make the remainder of the participants suffer.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:50 PM
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WRONG on the results !!
The Patapedia is ONLY open to Qc. residents for sector 3 and is 50/50 with NB residents for the canoe run !
The Causap ??
WOW !!!!I WISH IT WAS 0% non resident !!! Your comment here is ,indeed ,quite humerous (AND false)
The Petite I am TOTALLY uninterested in until a few things change there !
AS for yor Outfitter comments .I would agree IF the outfitter IS a Qc. resident AND the money STAYS in Gaspe ,or at least the province !!
Nothing else equates to "supporting the economy" An influx of money is desperately needed in the region .
Pardon my math here, but I just cannot figure out how a (as quoted below ) SMALL increase in #'s in a FEW sectors would continue to provide QUALITY fishing These #'s were determined in the past at a certain number to provide QUALITY fishing and cannot continue, with the INCREASED fishing pressure continue to provide that quality. Don't get me wrong.I'm definately NOT anti outfitter .I use one for 5 to 9 days each year. THAT outfitter 2 years back publicized their fishing to the extent that this year fishing on their waters were ruined due to pressure, and if it continues for another 2 years their rugular clientele will not be going back !
I too pay dearly the taxes ! support the economy and support the rivers EVERY DAY of the year
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salar 33
O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.
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Old 01-11-2006, 05:20 PM
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Dear Brian,

The numbers came from the CGRMP web site for Glenn Emma, Casaupscal and Patapedia. The Pat is open for non residents as stated by the Corporation. Below is a Causap & Pat price structure from the Zec. It is not listed as New Brunswick Resident. So please note that I think you have your sectors mixed. According to CGRMP sector 3 is open to non residents. Has been for as long as I can remember.

www.cgrmp.com if you would like to check.

DATE SECTOR RESIDENT NON-RESIDENT MODALITIES

1 37,50 $ n/a #2
2 90,75 $ n/a #3
3 113,00 $ 153,00 $ #3
Guest 34,00 $

You seem to have taken my comments in a negitive way. I was in no way suggesting that Quebec should be taking action to take something away or make it more difficult for local people. Other than this I don't understand the cut of your reply. I have nothing in my heart but the desire for the people of Quebec to be prosporous.


C.R.O.
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Old 01-11-2006, 07:36 PM
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Shoulda prrrof-rrread but was bounced off while posting/typing
Yer right. Sector 3 might be open to all and is one our the jewels of Qc. fishing.9 or 11 kms of WILDERNESS fishing ,all for 6 fishemen!!. Hit it one year 4 days after Millionaire's Pool emptied out and fish ran the Matapedia AND the Pat !Had three days of incredible fishing ! Albini ,however, has changed dramatically this year and I here no longer holds the U.S. Navy sub. fleet of 80+ 25 to 30lbers. One year we counted 200 fish in that pool ! Sector 2 (the canoe run) IS however open only to Qc. and NB residents.Quebecers and NBers alternating each other day.Therefore the 50/50 that I mentioned .Sector one is ,as I remember ,open water. Off the top of my head right now I can count 3 non residents that were in the top 35 in the Causap. draw.
Cheers

Last edited by Salar-1; 01-12-2006 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 01-12-2006, 01:25 AM
wilson wilson is offline
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Juro, the controlled sectors cover quite a bit of the water in the main rivers in the provence, especially in Gaspe proper. The Matapedia is the only river I've fished that has a very large sequential public sector and my understanding is that it can become a free-for-all after June. I've found many pools occupied after the 15th. There still are a lot of salmon killed after C&R, I think that does politicize the issue more for the longer open season. My early season experience is that we all get along and there is enough water on the peninsula for everybody. Whether they hold fish or not is the question.

Needless to say it's a powerful issue for the Quebecers and as you can see there are more than two sides to it. The residents want [reasonable] access to fish their own water and the outfitters want to bring in business. It's a tough call and I don't envy the Quebec Government their jobs on this one.

While I'm on the soapbox, and there's talk of controlling access to fish, what about controlling the numbers of fish that can enter the river. I love early June on the Matapedia, but when the nets go out the run [obviously] stops until they come out. Anyone checking tonage or numbers harvested? Or am I just talkin' crack again?

BTW - I'm actually surprised to hear the Patapedia is open to non-residents. I thought that was residents only. Have to look into that. And Glen Emma is only %5 non-resident? I find that hard to believe, documented though it is.

-Chris
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Old 01-12-2006, 04:24 AM
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With the low numbers running your rivers you still allow netting?
I thought the Irish were mad.
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:39 AM
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To follow this thread,

I have been fishing in Quebec on public and private and ZEC water for a long time now. I feel I have a pretty darn good understand of the process and the available waters. I know what it feels like to want to fish in the beauty of Quebec’s gleaming waters.

I have been on the Matapedia forks on June 1st and stood as the only outsider fishing for 45 minutes out of each 3 and one half hours. I have been on Hepel in the middle of July as the only outsider getting 15 minutes each pass. Does anyone think that all the boats on the upper Matapedia and Bonnie are owned by Americans? I have put my name into draw after draw after 48 hour draw with very little results to show for my money and effort.

J'essaye d'apprendre le français ainsi je peux avoir la meilleure expérience.

I have been at the Bonnie when it is just too crowded. How many parking spots do you have to find full on the York to understand what crowded fishing is like.

IN ALL OF THESE TIMES NEVER WERE THE PEOPLE THE ISSUE FOR ME. ONLY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

I have turned my attention and money to private water over the last number of years because I cannot stand the lack of solitude. I want to choose when I sit and when I cast.

So Brian, I full well understand your frustration. But I want you to take a broader look around this season. Maybe in Gaspe you are seeing a few more license plates from outsiders but this is not the case for most public sectors. You are seeing Quebec plates for the majority and you are blaming a few outsiders for your crowd. Also just for clarification on the Causapscal, there are only 25 draw cards accepted. I was number 28 and did get a consolation call. Only 3 days for 2 sports were left at that time. I would have taken it but I was lucky enough this year to get a prime time spot on Glenn Emma that was the same dates. If you call Anne or Richard in Causap a lot of these things could be understood.

I think the main reason why outsiders could be eliminated from the lottery draws without much cause for hardship is self evident. The independent guides would suffer. A little gas a little food and a little hotel space would be hurt. But the general well being of the area would not suffer all that much. The truth is that there are not as many outsiders on the rivers as some might have you believe. And the number on non residents that win spots in the draws is low.

The fact of the matter is that there are just too few salmon. Look at the counts on some of these rivers. I have been following a number of web sites from across the pond. Single rivers where the fish count is greater than the entire Gaspe from Matapedia to Matane. All Private, No Public. Catches so great yet the number of sports are limited with a fishing day that starts at 8am and ends a 5pm. Jacket and Tie fishing at it's very best. The time it takes for me to get to Matapedia is about the same as Edinburgh.

Juro, the answer to being successful in the November draws is to put your name in all of them at a cost of about $500.00 US and then hope you get picked on one. The revenue that is now generated by these draws is a substantial amount. Also you must know the river by sector and pool to make a smart decision. This year the person on the draw must be present as one of the sports. Non transferable unlike as in the past that created the problem with ballot stuffing in Gaspe. You pay a deposit to hold the spot and then the balance in the early spring. The ZEC has the money even if the water goes fallow.

So I will state again. I would welcome a 25/75 rule. The issue is that the good people of Quebec will not.

Dear Malcolm, as far as the netting is concerned. It is the right of the First Nation people to carry on their traditional culture. This is a topic that has roots as deep as Bannock Burn. Every year one person’s rights over another’s are discussed on both sides. As an outsider, I choose not to take sides in this matter. Do I want more salmon in the river? Yes. Do I want a people with ancient history to prosper? Yes. So to answer your query on why there is netting, some will answer why not.


C.R.O.

Last edited by Salar 33; 01-12-2006 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:24 AM
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Thanks for the reply re netting.
If the river will stand the netting I suppose it is ok, but I am not sure that with the figures I have seen that it can.
The Irish netsmen use the same excuse...................our famillies have been netting for generations it is in our blood. Simply no salmon no netting.
The extiction curve on salmon stocks has a very flat plateau but a very deep drop, move too far to the left and the salmon will be lost in no time at all.
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:08 PM
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Dear Malcolm,

To cull out the netting as a problem we must also make sure that we understand all the other problems. If only the limited netting that was in place by First Nation people were happening then what would be the problem? Please remember, and I mean this in no way to demean Scottish heritage, that when the family was told to stop netting they did not loose a part of their religious path.

What has happened in Quebec is more like if all the Scottish commoners got together and forced by their vote for the owners of the beats to make them public. This is done by taking away the river leases and rights. Then hire a company(ZEC)to control who gets to use the land and water. Not too long ago the rivers of the Gaspe were wholly leased by aristocrats and the well to do. If I were to compare the Aberdeen Dee to the Matapedia it would go something like this. Up to and including Park would be public. No limit to access and only a daily fee of about 25 pounds. Boats with motors are legal. Among the public and the beginning of the controlled zone were two private sporting lodges with some river access that limits the public access. From Park to Inchmarlo would be run on a lottery basis with a total of 10 rods per day at the price of the Junction on the Tweed. Above that would be all public again for a daily fee where boats without motors were present. Residents would pay about 60% of what no residents pay. The Gairn tributary(Causapscal) with it's run of huge fish would be controlled by a ZEC for 300 pounds per day. It would be a very different situation than the river you know now.

Add to this the PH value changing many rivers, angler taken fish, angler released fish that do not spawn, foul hooked fish, degraded habitat, seals, cormorants, change in climate, and deforestation.

Shall I go on?

We all have a personal level of value to what we do. We all want to have a justification for our actions. We all want the right to do what we love. To be able to all do this we must have some one to point a finger at and say they are the problem when it comes to our pursuit of Salar.

If there could ever come a point when we collectively understand this then the need for one group’s rights to mean more than another's rights may have a chance of becoming equal rights.

Again I state that I am not taking sides, only trying to discuss a topic from the center.

C.R.O.
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