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Old 11-15-2005, 01:35 PM
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Charlie Charlie is offline
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Single hooks for tube flies

While working a tube fly through one of my favorite pools the other day and using some new hooks I began to think about my trials and tribulations with tube fly hooks. So I thought I would share what I went through so other people will not have the same problems I had.

My initial experiments with tube flies went very poorly primarily, I think, because of the hooks I started using. Most of the mail order catalogs I got recommended using the Daiichi X510 Xpoint hook for tube flies (hook in upper right of the picture). And since this was the only source of info on the subject I could find I went for it. Looking back on the whole thing I realized that these people didnít know any better than I did. My hookup and landing percentages both proved to be very poor using this hook.

The next hook I tried was Partridge Boilie hook (hook in upper left of the picture), again on the recommendation of a fly shop person I met at one of the fly fishing shows I worked at over the winter. This hook seemed to be better than the X510 but my hookups where still not on par with standard fly hooks for some reason.

I was getting ready to give up the ghost on tube flies when my friend Nick recommended using a different hook, the Daiichi 2451 (hook in lower right of the picture). This hook worked very well both in terms of fish hooked and fish landed.

A fourth hook I have started to use is the Partridge Salar tube fly hook (hook in lower left of the picture). My info on hookups and fish landed is still incomplete for this hook because I have only been using it for a short time. However, it does have one point in its favor that is not readily visible in the picture. It has a larger than normal eye that seats very well in the junction tubing.

If anyone else has info to share on the subject I would be very interested in it. Its always better to let someone else make the mistakes.

Charlie
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Old 11-15-2005, 03:10 PM
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Do any of the hooks have an offset, as I think this might help
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:27 PM
Youngpatawan Youngpatawan is offline
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Tube Fly Hooks

I have been using the Gamakatsu SL45. It's a bonefish hook which is the closest thing that I could find to the Diachii 2451. I think that the shank is slighty shorter than the Daiichi one, but have had good success on most of our waters here. Talk to ya soon Charlie.
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:11 PM
chromedome chromedome is offline
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Can't add much here since I'm still getting started with tubes. The only hook I've tried is the X150 mentioned above. I've not had the good fortune of a strike yet, possibly because I've hardly used the hook, but I was concerned that it didn't stay put but instead rotated out of position. I would say that since tying on tubes seems to be taking off, it would be good to develop some standards regarding hooks and perhaps other aspects as well. What do the Europeans use? They have been tying on tubes a long time now. Somewhere others must have gone thru this same dilemma. We shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:43 PM
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Trouble is the Europeans usually use trebles, now starting to use doubles (Loop and Partridge Salar) Single users are rare but some of us exist.

I got an interesting hook from Nobou of CND a Japanese double with a very wide gape and not soldered along the join. Great hooker on Sunrays!!
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:06 PM
peter-s-c peter-s-c is offline
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Looks like the successful hooks have slightly longer shanks. I'd like to add to the data pile but all of my tube fly successes have been on overeager smallmouth who got to the fly before the steelies. I used the Partridge hook intended for tubes but I don't have the package anymore so . . . .

Ran across the Mustad 10456BLN Ultra Point the other day in a tackle shop and I bought a couple of packets to try. Up eye, nickel plated, thin wire and a shank about as long as your "good" ones. We'll see how it works on the end of some Waddingtons.

In a similar vein, what do you think of beaked hooks or those with an "English bait hook" type of profile?

Last edited by peter-s-c; 11-16-2005 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:05 AM
t_richerzhagen t_richerzhagen is offline
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Tiemco 105

size 4 have worke well for me. I have not used tubes as much as standard hooks, but do not remember a grab on the tube that did not hook up, and the landing ratio has been better than with standard hooks. That is just my experience to date.
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:43 PM
SSPey SSPey is offline
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I bought a pack of those x-point hooks and like you, I found them to have very poor hooking power.

For flies with trailing hooks (not tubes) I have been happy with a Gamakatsu no 2 bait hook that is slightly offset, and with an upturned eye that holds the return wire nicely. It is available at the local sporting goods stores. I would think that a straight eye version of that hook would be great for tubes, probably one exists.
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:01 AM
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Funny, I've had great success with the X-Points. Mind you, it was over a short period on highly aggressive Queen Charlotte's fish. There is another hook I use, for which I can not remember the model number. Made by Daichi, short shank, off-set, japanned, and slightly upturned point. May have cost me one or two, but can't say for sure. I have a bunch of the 2451's, but have yet to fish them. Will definitely throw them in the box on my next trip.
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Old 11-18-2005, 04:55 AM
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IMHO the effectiveness of one hook vs the other depends on whether the barb is removed or not (among other things). I for the most part do not fish with a barb, except maybe when facing the white stripe at the end of a week of dropping steelhead or salmon and only where regs permit (maybe 1-2% of the time). 0% of the time for stripers or trout for instance, in other words always barbless.

Therefore my hook choices are more prone to favor designs that hold better when barbless. Just about any decent hook will hook better barbless, but few hold well that way.

A couple examples of hooks I've found to hold very well barbless are the Tiemco 200R for fresh, the 811S in salt. Looking at Charlie's 2 most favored hooks the resemblance is pretty distinct, thus from my perspective I see his findings as damn good advice for my next tube hook purchase.
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Old 11-18-2005, 08:53 AM
t_richerzhagen t_richerzhagen is offline
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Juro

Please explain your thoughts about holding. Other than circle hooks, I do not see a lot of diffierence in ability to "hold" after hooking in the designs mentioned. One idea has been that longer shanks allow for more leverage on the area of contact between hook and fish. This supposedly makes it easier to bend the hook or tear tissue, so the hooks works out.
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:10 AM
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Hi Ted -

Hope you are well.

Not sure if I can offer anything scientific about the topic but I have anecdotal beliefs that I feel are to some degree qualified, albeit all fishing wisdom is a 'work in progress' for the wise angler.

There is a particular hook I fished for a while with a perfectly round bend from shank to point. There were aspects of the hook that made it great for a fly I used to fish a lot, but I found that it constantly dropped fish during the fight. This was a striper hook, and I fished this fly in the spring and fall migration when flashy attraction was key so we are talking about those 40-50 fish hooked days when one can compile some statistics.

In these same situations, I switched to the offset J (for lack of better term) where the bend starts more gradually off the shank and condenses into a corner radius before rising to the point.

Venturing scientifically (beyond my means) the material in the bend should be forced into this corner, limiting pitch and yaw during battle.

All I really know is that the 811S is a very, very effective barbless hook and I never fish it barbed. I land as many fish as any barbed angler next to me, on good days many more

I will not name the brand / model of the other hook, but it's considered a top brand and widely used. Probably fine barbed.

On the steelhead front, we can use the profile of the common spooner's siwash verses an English Bartleet to emphasize the differences. I am convinced that a short shanked siwash fished barbless would be near useless due to it's perfectly symmetric bend radius. Some bartleets are made with such a short point segment that the design relies on the barb, I don't fish these. The 200R is a very good summer hook with a good bend profile and they are priced right. I like the Alecs but have lost too many good fish on them coming straight and won't use them smaller than 1.5s anymore.

In short, the eliptical radius bend pushes lip into the corner and helps hold without a barb IMHO, the research continues... maybe I can get a grant
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
IMHO the effectiveness of one hook vs the other depends on whether the barb is removed or not (among other things). I for the most part do not fish with a barb, except maybe when facing the white stripe at the end of a week of dropping steelhead or salmon and only where regs permit (maybe 1-2% of the time). 0% of the time for stripers or trout for instance, in other words always barbless.
I think this is a very important point. Before going to scottland last spring I crimped some of my loop dobble tube hooks according to the recommendations of the Dee conservation code. The first two fish I hooked was only on for about 15 seconds and when i confronted the ghillie with this he said that they quit crimping the barbs on these hooks several years ago. While this hooks are very popular on the Dee they are almost useless as barbless hooks, it's almost impossible to land the fish. The ghillie also told me that the few fish they had landed when fishing this hooks barbless where more damaged in the mouth when using hooks with barbs because they had loosen and fasten again many times.

I've never tried the single hooks on my tubes. Never had any problems with releasing fish cought on a double hook with barbs.

Last edited by McIntyre; 11-18-2005 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 11-18-2005, 08:21 PM
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My best tube/waddington hook is a Gamakatsu octopus barbless in #1 (for steelhead, 4/0 for chinook)- upturned eye, offset point, fine wire, semi circle style and razor sharp. Next most effective is the Daiichi 3111 - straight eye but needs the barb to be crimped down.
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:32 PM
SSPey SSPey is offline
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speydoc, that is the Gamakatsu that I was thinking of...
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