i HATE my Sage 909 Launch rod! - Fly Fishing Forum
Gear Talk - Fly Stuff Spoken Here Sage advice & fresh perspectives

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-15-2005, 06:32 PM
Massflyfishing's Avatar
Massflyfishing Massflyfishing is offline
Christopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 68
Send a message via AIM to Massflyfishing
i HATE my Sage 909 Launch rod!

Uggghh...

I bought it as a backup rod, also for my buddies to use, etc...

Today I tried it out in Ipswich and it casts HORRIBLE! What a "noodle rod". I did try it out at the dealer before I bought it and it casted OK. But with a weighted fly the entire rod performs like @#*!).

I also broke my Trident TLS when I switched over to use old faithful (clouser a couple of nights sent it on it's way to doom today), so now I must rely on this god awful rod!

But, I will go the fly shop tommorrow to see if he'll refund me for the rod or maybe even upgrade to a VPS (i don't have the money currently for an RPLXi).

If not, I'm calling Sage.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 07-15-2005, 08:48 PM
baldmountain's Avatar
baldmountain baldmountain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ayer, MA
Posts: 145
Send a message via Yahoo to baldmountain
Are you sure it's not because you are used to casting a 2 handed rod? I took out my 4wt single hander this morning and had some trouble casting it because I've been using my 2 hander...
__________________
geoff

http://www.nfaa-archery.org <-----<< My other passion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:01 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Portland, ME.
Posts: 1,586
"If not, I'm calling Sage."

Hmmmm....

"Hello, Sage? I don't like how your rod casts. I have ripped it on a web site, and now I want something."

This doesn't seem like the right way to get started. I hope the shop you bought it from can help you out.
__________________
One cast can change your day...maybe your life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:39 PM
Massflyfishing's Avatar
Massflyfishing Massflyfishing is offline
Christopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 68
Send a message via AIM to Massflyfishing
who here works at sage?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:40 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,585
I don't know the Launch series very well but would be curious to diagnose the problem:

- how long was the leader? Tippet size?
- what size were the barbell eyes? lead?
- what style of line?

I ask this because the rod and the fly usually don't have a direct relationship provided the line is doing it's job. The rod's role is to move the line, the line's role is to move the fly. It's our job to move the rod, not the fly.

Whenever I hear a rod is not moving a fly I have to first wonder what's up with the line. Also the leader is a critical part of the tranfer of energy from the line to the fly. If the leader is not stout enough to turn over a lead eye fly, or if the energy in the line is not sufficient to move the fly, then the caster tends to push harder to squeak that tiny bit of energy thru to the fly that can be exerted by brute force. However, a well-orchestrated transfer of energy can achieve the task better with little effort and there is no sensation of the rod pushing the fly - purely a feeling of the line doing that task.

A simple change of the leader, and perhaps the removal of the useless level foot of line at the end of the taper on factory lines would make the fly turnover like a champ. Many lead eyes require at least 12# to turn over effectively.

Some lines are made with a long delicate front taper. These lines make it more difficult to turn over weighted flies. They used to make a saltwater bug taper, that was my favorite line for years. It was a short blunt head and aggressive taper that was well suited for striper fishing.

Then there's the fly itself. I often fish flies over 6" with weighted eyes that turn over nicely at 120ft on a 9 wt. Why? the materials properly buffer the weight of the eyes with wind resistance, it is in effect balanced and uses a slight air brake effect to prevent the lead eyes from recoiling and getting out of rhythm of the cast.

After all those things are covered, if the rod can't do the job then it's a rod problem. If you can describe symptoms I'd be very curious to hear them.

thanks in advance (this is interesting)
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 07-15-2005, 09:59 PM
sean's Avatar
sean sean is offline
LBFF Mojo
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,160
The launch is advertised as a medium action type rod. It is not the rods fault you do not like the action. If you want a faster stick you should have looked at thier FLI series.

-sean
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:18 PM
Massflyfishing's Avatar
Massflyfishing Massflyfishing is offline
Christopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 68
Send a message via AIM to Massflyfishing
Yay, I know I should have opted for the VPS but once again price was a factor. I guess it's really my fault. Meh... I'm still goign to get the rod refunded. Well on second thought I have an Orvis that's med-fast that can def handle the wind, etc...

I'm using a brand new Rio clear intermediate 9 weight line. I tie my own leaders.

I go with 3 feet of 50, 1 foot of 40, 1 foot of 30, 1 foot of 20.

I definitely know how to cast although i do ironically opt for faster action rods to complement my casting style. I did use an old Orvis Rivermaster the other day (my buddy's) which is Orvis' old graphite I believe and did perfectly fine.

I went fishing with two other guys today who both almost laughed me off the water with rod when they saw the ridiculous flex (no power)... I wasn't even the one who initially made the claim it was a "noodle rod" although I was extremely extremely unhappy with it's preformance (my creative criticism hadn't kicked in).

There's no way this rod can measure up to the salt. I was trying to find a cheap rod for around 200 and when I casted a Templefork its action seemed even slower.

I don't know... It's not worth having a cheap rod that you can't utilize... I guess calling up a company is slightly severe but if something doesn't preform like it should (as i don't believe this rod is close to handling the daily punishment of casting big flies in the wind) I believe the company should at least know of it... If nobody wants to make me happy even if that requires me to spend more money for a better rod, that's pefectly fine. I bought the rod... I guess it is my fault for thinking I could get away with something that cheap althought I was pretty hestiant to even try it in the first place (for saltwater). I mean I'm not the world's most accomplished saltwater guy but I can still shoot my entire line when called for... There is always EBAY right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 07-16-2005, 08:01 AM
baldmountain's Avatar
baldmountain baldmountain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ayer, MA
Posts: 145
Send a message via Yahoo to baldmountain
Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
or if the energy in the line is not sufficient to move the fly, then the caster tends to push harder to squeak that tiny bit of energy thru to the fly that can be exerted by brute force
Which leads to problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juro
However, a well-orchestrated transfer of energy can achieve the task better with little effort and there is no sensation of the rod pushing the fly - purely a feeling of the line doing that task.
Which leads to joy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massflyfishing
I went fishing with two other guys today who both almost laughed me off the water with rod when they saw the ridiculous flex (no power)... I wasn't even the one who initially made the claim it was a "noodle rod" although I was extremely extremely unhappy with it's preformance (my creative criticism hadn't kicked in).
I haven't had a chance to try the Launch rods either, but I checked the Sage website. They claim the Launch rods are medium-fast action. (Although one person's med-fast is often another's slow.) Are you sure you are not over lining an 8 wt? Or misreading and trying to cast a 9 wt line on a 7 wt rod and REALLY overloading it?

Of course the other possibility is that there was a manufacturing error and Sage made a rod with a 6 or 7 weight blank and labeled it a 9 wt. I have trouble believe Sage could make a rod THAT bad.
__________________
geoff

http://www.nfaa-archery.org <-----<< My other passion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 07-16-2005, 08:31 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,585
Christopher -

Here's another possibility: some lines have a very fine running line to optimize shooting distance, but this makes it paramount to keep the line at the proper length out of the tip guide. Even a few feet of this running line exposed can render the energy transfer useless.

A thin light line can not physically transfer energy from the rod to the thicker, heavier head section. Therefore the rod must act upon the fat part of the line directly.

If the running line is past the tip the rod will transmit a sensation of total power loss to the hand and arm.

It's possible that a stiff rod will shock it's way through more 'overhang' than a gracefully flexing rod, but that does not make it better. In fact some of us simply can't stand stiff rods. The casting function of a rod is to (a) accept maximum energy load (b) hold onto and build up that energy through the stroke and (c) release that energy into a waveform in the line. As I see it, a stiff rod resists bending, wants to release that energy too quickly and is harder for most casters to manipulate. But it might bully through more overhang, I would need to test this theory (but I don't own any stiff rods).

In conclusion for these kinds of fast back tapered lines, which are very well suited to saltwater fishing - the head must be kept at the tip and the cast shot from there without feeding line into the false casts.

Could this be part of the situation at hand?
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 07-16-2005, 10:05 AM
Eddie Eddie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Portland, ME.
Posts: 1,586
MassFly, this is really between you and the dealer. If you are unhappy with the rod, the dealer should work with you. If they could resell it (it is still in excellent condition) maybe they could aply the price paid to a better rod. They would be doing yopu a favour, so be polite.
As for the performance of the rod, I suspect that it is in line with other rods in that price range. Juro has pretty well summed up some of the issues that could be the problem. I will only add that often, a "fast action" rod has a softer tip that can be easily over loaded when a caster tries to "give it something extra". Maybe you would prefer a rod that has a heavier tip.
"Saltwater rods" usually have realatively stiffer tips (Sage XP vs. RPLXi2). These rods can handle being pushed harder, a wider range of line weights and flies. They suffer the ham fisted casters a little better too.
Cast the next rod you purchase with the lines and flies you hope to cast.
__________________
One cast can change your day...maybe your life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 07-16-2005, 10:39 AM
Massflyfishing's Avatar
Massflyfishing Massflyfishing is offline
Christopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 68
Send a message via AIM to Massflyfishing
Juro - that's an excellent theory! Makes sense to me... I don't, however, believe this is the problem as I wasn't casting 30+ feet because I couldn't get the damn rod to load. I'm pretty sure I wasn't into the running line. But then again, I wasn't really thinking of it at the time. The problem when owning really fast action rods and slow slow slow action rods is constantly changing your rhythm (timing, awarness, etc...). I mean I guess there are a bunch of factors that could seem to be at hand. If at all possible, I would not like to alter everything else to make sure this rod can cast up to where I would feel comfortable relying on it...

Eddie - Don't get me wrong. I'm extremely extremely modest in person. I understand the dealer would be doing me a great favor. I've shopped with him for 11+ years... I'm all for politness. I guess my initial post was a little over the top but I was completely dismayed how it acted on the water especially when it should have been able to preform a little better (my opinion) with idle conditions (almost no wind, etc...). I mean I can usually pick up a different casting stroke depending on the action of a rod but i was comletely baffled by this one. Some rod companies will go to some length to make things right to a customer. I don't understand why they would have extreme objections if I were to buy another rod. Then again, I'm not a big wig in the fly fishing industry. I don't know... I definitely am going to take your advice and bring the line and flies (with hook point cut off) when I cast my next rod!

Do you believe VPS would still be too slow (i know i still have yet to cast it)?

XP OR RPLXi?

Thoughts?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 07-16-2005, 12:50 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massflyfishing
Do you believe VPS would still be too slow (i know i still have yet to cast it)?

XP OR RPLXi?

Thoughts?
This is a question that only two people can answer - yourself and a qualified casting instructor. I realize that you are an experienced caster, and you know what you are doing - that's not what's in question. However to answer these questions you'll need someone who can recognize your casting technique and show you what a particular rod action responds to, etc. He/she might be able to broaden your horizons, because a good instructor is also a good caster and can pick up anything from a hardwood 2x4 to a fiberglass noodle rod and still make a good cast. Therefore he/she should be able to communicate the character of each so you can make a qualified decision.

The VPS, which is the new name for the old RPL with lower grade trim, is considered by many savvy anglers to be among the best rods ever made. Be warned that guys who say this are into a smoothly loading fully progressive action because that's the RPL way. I own 3 RPLs that I will never sell. A 5wt, an 8wt 9'6", and a 4-pc 10wt. All of them suit my casting style perfectly.

But there are also many who would get the exact same reaction as you did once they cast my RPLs. If they can cast the rod very well and say they don't like it that's one thing. But if they can't cast it and say they the rod sucks I can't help but wonder how one could reach such a conclusion.
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 07-16-2005, 01:23 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Portland, ME.
Posts: 1,586
Not having ever seeen you cast, I would be confident recomending the RPLXi2 over the XP in this case. They are both terific rods. Just different. I should note that I am NOT a qualified casting instructor...but I own both of those rods (10wt.XP and 10wt. RPLXi2).
Those two rods are in a different price range altogether, so it's really not apples to apples.
Cast as many rods as you can. In your range and out of it. That is the best way to get a sense of the differences between rod actions. Don't take anyones word for it. That includes buddys, advertising hype, geeks on the internet and shop guys.
__________________
One cast can change your day...maybe your life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 07-16-2005, 01:48 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,585
Eddie -

You've piqued my interest. Why is the Xi2 the better choice over the XP?
__________________
IFFF Certified THCI @ 2005
Capeflyfisher Guide Service
Island Hopper, Guitarist, Incurable Dreamer
and Founder, Worldwide Flyfishing Forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 07-16-2005, 05:13 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Portland, ME.
Posts: 1,586
In this case I think that the Xi2 would be better because I think that because the XP has a lighter tip, it might not cast a teeny type line as well (I don't think that it would tolerate as wide a range of grains). I think that the lighter tip can be "over powered" easier, so I think that in challenging conditions (like wind or longer casts) the XP would require more skill.
You know that they are both excellent rods, and in the right hands, could do well in any conditions, with any lines and any appropriate fly. I just think that most salt water fishermen would be better served by the Xi2.
If I were only fishing intermediate and floating lines, and smaller flies, in moderately windy conditions, the XP is my first choice (it is a terrific rod for little tunny and permit when the wind is up). Because it has a softer tip, it loads quickly and is well suited for sight casting.
If I were fishing a 400grn line, with a big pollock fly, the Xi2 would be my choice. I also have ben using it for tarpon the last two seasons. I think it might be a little tougher than the XP.
As I said befor, don't trust the word of some geek on the internet.
Juro, if you want to cast both, I will bring them along next time we see eachother. i would be interested to see what you think.
__________________
One cast can change your day...maybe your life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sage RPLXI 909-3 pc. Brand New! flysully For Sale by Owner 4 08-29-2005 06:04 PM
IBIS/Scott A2/Sage Launch or Fli kharydin Gear Talk - Fly Stuff Spoken Here 1 07-22-2005 07:59 PM
I'm going to hate KerryS Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum 4 02-21-2003 12:02 PM
Love, hate, love, hate, love the N.Umpqua SparseHairHackl Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum 5 09-25-2002 01:49 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)