Has it been proved inconclusively that spring fish breed springers?? - Page 2 - Fly Fishing Forum
Classic Atlantic Salmon No pursuit rivals salmon rivers, flies & legacy

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  #16  
Old 01-26-2005, 08:18 AM
G Ritchie G Ritchie is offline
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OK, we will let one through
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  #17  
Old 01-26-2005, 10:48 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER TYNE SPEYCASTER is offline
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Graham,

Thanks you are a gentleman, one would be great
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  #18  
Old 01-26-2005, 12:32 PM
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DaveSadowski DaveSadowski is offline
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Tynespeycaster

The EA measures were put in place in 1999 for a period of 10 years so I cant see a change of heart anytime soon.

Have a read of http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/fish/165773/510556/510814/?version=1&lang=_e

(You will have to copy and paste the above link into your address bar.)
Contains details of the Interim review into the conservation measures.

The only "true" evidence to support the spring run on the Tyne is the fish counter figures at Riding Mill - although there has been great debate regarding there accuracy.

Perhaps on some of the "better" beats from Bywell up over they might not be reporting kelts but on the lower - budget - beats ie Fed, BWAC who very rarely make there catches official for fear of rent increases I would say it is a problem.

I know of one person who had four "spring" salmon from Hagg bank fishing once a week during March. They never had another fish until september. Perhaps he was lucky or perhaps he was catching well conditioned kelts who knows.

I have had numerous conversations early season with anglers on the fed water which have went along the lines of :

Me: Any thing doing ?
Joe Bloggs : Nah not today but I had one on saturday and Billy had two plus another one last thursday.
Me: What spring fish or kelts ?
Joe Bloggs: I think mine might have been a kelt but I'm sure Billy said his were spring fish.

I recommend you have a run down Merryshields way early season and have a talk with a few of the heavy artillery brigade. You might just have your eyes opened.

Tyne fish counter figures :

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/103599/tynelatest_347299.doc

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/103599/tynecounts_307899.doc

Out of interest have you signed up for the EA log book scheme ?

Last edited by DaveSadowski; 01-26-2005 at 01:32 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-26-2005, 12:46 PM
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Willie Gunn Willie Gunn is offline
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Dave,
Welcome to the site.
If you think you have problems on the Tyne where everything goes back, imagine the problems on the Spey where "anglers" ( I use the term loosely) can take every second fish.

Last year I heard a gillie being questioned when he unhooked a baggot and asked the angler to return it. "Are you sure young man"

On the subject of fishcounters the Spey counter has now been discontinued as it was decided it was too expensive to run compared with the information it was giving. An equally accurate measurement could be gauged from catch returns from some selected beats, both well gillied.
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  #20  
Old 01-26-2005, 01:26 PM
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Malcolm

Out of interest, roughly how big is the spring run of fish on the Spey ?

Info on the Tyne fish counter can be found at :

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/regions/northeast/411697/411974/302541/305108/?lang=_e&theme=&region=&subject=&searchfor=salmon+ tyne

Last edited by DaveSadowski; 01-26-2005 at 01:35 PM.
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  #21  
Old 01-26-2005, 01:34 PM
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Willie Gunn Willie Gunn is offline
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The Spey Board estimate that in 2004 between 19 000-25 000 ran the spey up to 30th June.
As you can see they give themselves a 25% error rate so I'm glad you asked roughly how big is the spring run of fish on the Spey ?
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2005, 03:14 PM
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DaveSadowski DaveSadowski is offline
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Thanks for that info.

For the same period last year the Tyne had a run of 5233 (1290 from Jan - May)and only 2444 (442 from Jan - May) for the same period in 2003.

Malcolm, Sorry to be a pain but do you know what % ratio the Spey board use to calculate the run of fish from the declared rod catches ?

Last edited by DaveSadowski; 01-26-2005 at 03:17 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2005, 03:33 PM
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Willie Gunn Willie Gunn is offline
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Dave,
Tagging studies carried out in 1991-2001 suggested that anglers catch between 15-20% of spring fish.
I cannoot understand with such a small run as 5000 that "anglers" could contimplate "taking one for the pot"
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2005, 03:49 PM
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DaveSadowski DaveSadowski is offline
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Malcolm

Thats exactly why I can not see the EA relaxing there ruling anytime in the near future - and nor should they.

When you consider that the Tyne has one of the best spring runs in England it shows what a sorry state we are in.

Even working off the higher 20% figure - to help take into account fish lying in the 7 miles or so of river below Riding Mill - it would only put last years spring fish total from Feb until the end of May at 258 fish (88 fish in 2003). There is a bit of a jump in June but this coincides with the start of the main seatrout runs.

Bywell Syndicate reported just over 100 fish caught by the end of May last year so they must have had roughly 40% of the whole spring catch between Feb - May.

Last edited by DaveSadowski; 01-26-2005 at 03:55 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-28-2005, 01:57 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER TYNE SPEYCASTER is offline
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Dave, Willie Gunn,

Excellent points, only one problem, the data from the Riding Mill fish counter has proved totally unreliable, yet has been used time and again by the EA to their advantage.

Example, July, 2003, no water, drought conditions, thousands of salmon dying in the estuary, no Kielder reservoir releases, yet the counter recorded 6005 for the month!!

It has been suggested that they must have used public transport as they certainly weren't in the river!!

The % theory seems pretty good but as you say only possible on managed beats, we don't have that on the Tyne.

I agree that the EA won't scrap present legislation completely, the whisper was that 1 fish would be allowed via a tagging system.

C&R should be an educated choice, if we can educate those who need it!! but total lack of choice inspires poaching, the Spey and Tweed have perhaps the right balance.

Tyne Speycaster
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  #26  
Old 01-28-2005, 07:53 AM
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Willie Gunn Willie Gunn is offline
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I will be bald soon with tearing my hair out.
Start giving anglers tags and they will start killing fish.
How many anglers( bear in mind the loose term anglers not fish killers) would return their first fish and only take the second? So you effectively have gone from 100% C&R to almost 100% catch and kill. Then add to this a group of four anglers, Andy Bill, Colin and Dave. A catches a fish and kills it using his tag but when he hooks his second he is quickly on the phone to B who then kills and tags that fish, etc,I'm sure you see where I'm going so at he end of the week the four friends all go home with a fish.

The Spey & Tweed at least have a few fish to play with the Tyne is teetering on the edge.

I cannot find a picture of the graph but it has a steep curve and an almost flat top, you can take fish from the flat top but as soon as you hit that curve your stock disappears at a terrible rate. Think of the Wye.

Charlie H does the Wye trust have a copy of the graph I'm looking for?
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  #27  
Old 01-28-2005, 08:11 AM
TYNE SPEYCASTER TYNE SPEYCASTER is offline
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Willie Gunn,

Please, I would not want to be responsible for any hair loss!!

Tagging has been suggested as an alternative that apparently works for responsible game fishers, not the 'anglers' that you refer to.

We have to give some trust surely.

TYNE SPEYCASTER
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  #28  
Old 01-28-2005, 09:57 AM
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DaveSadowski DaveSadowski is offline
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The fish counter stats have been widely debated as I stated in my original post. The general feeling tends to be that the figures shown are/can be over the top as you stated. The rumor was that during the period you mentioned there was a movement of dace upstream through the counter which were included in the figures. There has now supposedly been video equipment installed to try and give more accurate figures.

The other problem is that if the counter figures tend to be on the high side then perhaps the Tyne spring run last year was even worse than 5000.

My problem with the tagging system would be that yes perhaps the honest "responsible game fishers" would abide by the letter of the law but unfortunately not everyone fishing the Tyne comes under that heading.

I also feel that every fish returned is one more potential fish on the redds which is what the Tyne requires. What happens if/when we have another dry summer and we loose 2000+ fish again ? The Tyne is a recovering river and I feel every effort should be made to keep it heading in the right direction. If that means 100% C&R than thats fine with me.

Last edited by DaveSadowski; 01-28-2005 at 10:00 AM.
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2005, 05:13 PM
TYNE SPEYCASTER TYNE SPEYCASTER is offline
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Dave and Willie Gunn

Dave,

Were you aware of the Milner (or Milne) report of last year where the EA were trying to discredit the importance of the work done by the Kielder Hatchery??

This was because the EA had boasted that the Tyne was the best in England and other systems were pressurising for their own hatchery

Thankfully at present if we get more mortalities in the summer estuary the Tyne is covered by the Hatchery, then there is the New Tyne Tunnel construction to contend with.

Willie Gunn,

What is the general consensus on the Spey hatcheries??

Good or bad??

The Tweed has no hatchery and keeps getting quoted as the 'yardstick' in fishery management.

We have always said that given the habitat etc the salmon can more than look after himself, so do the hatcheries enhance or limit/restrict recovery??

When the runs are in danger I feel we must have the hatchery facilty to 'kick start' whether good or bad!!

On another theme, are you fishing the Spey opening day and if so where and more photos of the elusive springers please, it keeps us office guys sane, just!!

Pot belly pigs are fine, they work don't they??

Regards

Mike
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2005, 05:39 PM
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Willie Gunn Willie Gunn is offline
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The greatest loss of fish is at sea. The scientists tell us that the river is up to max on parr, how they draw that conclusion, I'm not sure. I remember getting sick of catching parr whilst fishing, as a boy ,not now.
This year the Spey is to operate a smolt trap to see if the max potential smolts are going to sea, if so the river board are doing their job and the hatchery can be run down.
I am not 100% convinced by all the figures, in its prime the nets killed 20 000fish and the rods another 10k, now everyone seems happy with a rod take of 10k.

Hatcheries, I'm not a fan, genetics etc etc etc. Let the fish through to clean well looked after spawning beds, let the young fish have non polluted food supplies and hatcherys should not be necessary. BUT fishing is a business as well and if anglers are not catching fish a hatchery is good PR, a quick fix that is deemed necessary in todays climate.

Friday I'm on Wester Elchies for a week or so with a few regulars from here, Andy Wren, Graham Ritchie, Gardener (Charlie H) so we will try to produce a picture or two. I have the Spey supper to get through on Thursday night after a day on the Dee, I'm wooried this drinking will start to curtail my fishing, if I turn up late smelling of kelts may be I will not be invited next year.
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