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>> Archive: Salmon & Steelhead Flies Spey flies to mixed wings, new innovations

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  #1  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:47 PM
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Hook Points

Sean's post has got me thinking, I have some of the Bartleet hooks and the point is a "Dublin" (?) point, this does not look to be the "best" hooking point on the market...anyone be able to give me alittle FYI on this style of point & any other styles out there?

Also, what is a Japaned hook?
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2004, 11:59 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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A Japaned hook is nothing more than one with a black finish. Originally this finish was black enamel that was air-dried. Modern black hooks have a baked-on finish. As you are probably aware, the term "Japaned" is no longer in vogue and hook makers use the obvious term of "black" to describe this color hook.

A "Dublin Point" is slightly hollow ground (meaning the point has a slight curve to it from point of barb to hook point that is very slightly U-shaped), it has a slight outward angle (meaning away from the shank) to the hook point as well, and somewhat has the shape of a narrow spear. This type of point was developed back in the middle 1800's and can be seen in the hook illustration in Blacker, THE ART OF FLY MAKING, 1855, Francis, BOOK OF ANGLING, 1867, Fitzgibbon (Ephemera), THE BOOK OF THE SALMON, 1850, Hale, HOW TO TIE SALMON FLIES, 1892, Kelson, THE SALMON FLY, 1895, along with the books by Hardy, Maxwell, and Price-Tannant on tying salmon flies. The "Dublin Point" is actually a very good hook because it readily catches hold in a fish and penetrates rather rapidly because of its slight outward angle.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:20 AM
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Hmmm Russ I have never heard someone refer to a barleet supreme as being a good fish holding hook. Maybe with the barb on but barbless in my experience and other steelheaders I have talked to I have not heard good things. They sure look good though.

-sean
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:32 AM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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Sean,

I agree, the Bartleet penetrates very quickly because of its Dublin Point; however, if the barb is mashed down, it is terrible at holding fish. This is due to both the dublin point's outward rake tearing the flesh of the fish's mouth and the leverage a fish can put on the point as a result of the shank length and shape of the hook bend. The point and bend of the Alec Jackson Spey Hook is much better at holding fish when barbless because the outward point angle is less, it is a needle point, and the bend has a slightly different shape. Personally, I quit using Bartleet hooks for fishing because I find Alec's hooks to be a more pleasing shape for spey flies and Alec's hooks hold better when barbless.
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Old 12-02-2004, 09:46 AM
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Alec Jackson

In my limited knowledge I have to disagree...partly. I have spoke with a few people about the AJ hooks and the complaint that I have and others as well is that when you mash the barb down, there was a tendency for this to create a very weak spot there and you risked breaking the point off. I have seen this happen and I have had it happen. Any insight or did I get riped off with AJ knock offs? BTW, the ones that I have are #2055 1.5 I think (the gold finish).
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Old 12-02-2004, 09:56 AM
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Hey Anadromous

Quote:
there was a tendency for this to create a very weak spot there and you risked breaking the point off. I have seen this happen and I have had it happen. Any insight or did I get riped off with AJ knock offs? BTW,
I mash the barb on every AJ hook I tie on and then file the bump down. I haven't broken one yet. Quit using them to pull the truck.

That being said I'll take a little tube hook anyday.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:18 AM
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I thought it was wierd too, but after I looked at the hookpoint it self, I saw that the cut to make the barb is into the point 1/2 way. So, when I mash the barb I think its like taking a piece of wire and bending it one way and then another, thus weakening the point...on the other hand I could be just a bumbling idiot.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
on the other hand I could be just a bumbling idiot.
I'm not saying that. I've just never had the breakage you speak of. There are lots of people around that don't like the AJs very well. I get a lot of complaints about them opening up although I think the 1.5s are pretty stout.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:59 AM
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I have a love/hate relationship with AJs. I love the looks of them and the way they fish but in smaller sizes they are prone to open up and in all sizes they seem to be somewhat brittle. I have experienced breakage at or behind the barb on a number of occasions over the years. Granted the breakage was due to poor casting and hard rocks and not the result of a fish.

A few years ago I had breakfast one morning with one of the old-time PNW legends and I was bemoaning the extreamly large buck I had lost a few days before. First he asked me what hook I was using and then he told me I deserved to lose that fish if I was fishing AJs.

I guess I am a slow learner as I still fish them more than any other hook for speys. I know they have their problems but damn, they do look good.
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:11 AM
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I also have found the 1.5 AJs in silver and gold heavy wire to be brittle. Like Sinktip says it is usually due to hitting rocks and such but they do not tolerate that as well as other hooks. I have just started using the new tiemco super point spey hooks which have the same profile as the AJs. They seem to be a little tougher and am going to fish them this winter and see how they do.

-sean
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:15 AM
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Hey Tip...

Quote:
Granted the breakage was due to poor casting and hard rocks and not the result of a fish.
Even the rather stout 2061s have broken when I have used them to try and make gravel.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:24 PM
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Change of topic then...hook preference

So I guess that begets a good question, what are everyones preference of hooks for both winter & summer flies & why? (to solve some of the above shortcomings)

I look for the smallest barb possible and the best tapered loop eye, but i have not found one with both. Partridge has a great tapered loop eye, but Tiemco has a very small barb.
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Last edited by Anadromous; 12-02-2004 at 12:27 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-02-2004, 12:35 PM
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The new Umpqua hooks (202SP) are very similar to AJs, are available in Black, Gold, Silver. Hook points are very nice and triangulated. The are just about the same diameter as AJs, maybe slightly larger. I've had AJs open up on me, too. So far, none of the TMCs have. Also, the new AJ heavies won't open up. Unfortunately, they're only available in 1.5 and 3.
Bill
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2004, 03:27 PM
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The new Tiempco mentioned is a very good hook. I've never had an AJ hook break unless I've hit it on rocks when casting. And I've landed chums to 22 lb on a standard AJ #3 (models 2059-blue- or 2051-black) and chum pull a lot harder than steelhead. I've had a #7 open up slightly once for me when I put too much pressure on a fish and have not had it happen since. When I bend the barb on my hooks, I use a fine pointed, needle nose plier that just covers the barb so that I don't inadvertently damage the hook either in front of or right behind the barb.

As to hooks with nice, finely tapered eye returns, there are several. The Tiempco 7999 heavy wire, 7989 light wire, and new 202SP (there is also another Tiempco that only comes in large sizes 1/0 to 5/0, but I forget its model number) meet the criteria.

In Daiichi hooks, the 2441 heavy wire, 2421 medium wire, 2131 low water (this is the number of Veverka's low water hook and Alec's low water river dee hook), 2161 heavy wire (this is the same as Alec's steelhead iron), the 2050, 2051, 2052, 2055, 2059 (these are the AJ standard wires), the 2061, 2062, and 2060 (these are the AJ heavy wires), the 2091 (AJ blind eye), the 2151 heavy wire straight looped eye (the same as Alec's steelhead iron without the upturned eye). Daiichi also makes a black, long shank, down, looped eye hook in size #1 & #2 that is an excellent dee or spey hook, but I don't remember its model number. The Dick Talleur straight, looped eye streamer hook of Daiici is another hook that makes a nice platform for spey and dee flies in the larger sizes (#2,4,6) it is model #2370.

Targus makes some nice salmon/steelhead irons, models T7999 and T7989, and the Targus hooks although not as nice or strong as the Tiempco or Daiichi are a well-made hook at a lower price.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2004, 04:04 PM
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The other new tiemco Russ refers to is the Tiemco 7931C. It comes in sizes 2/0 -5/0. A nice looking hook that is similiar to the 7999 but has a wider hook gape.

-sean
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