Two-handed casting 1-2-3 - Page 2 - Fly Fishing Forum
Stripers and Coastal Gamefish Stripers, Blues, Inshore tuna!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16  
Old 07-16-2004, 07:47 PM
DickIvers DickIvers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mass
Posts: 30
Juro,

I am good for Sunday.

Dick
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17  
Old 07-16-2004, 09:04 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Great! Sunday it is.

Please PM me with your phone contact info Dick - already have Brendans. I would prefer to meet in the morning since my better half has me tied up in the afternoon.

I would like to meet around Concord if that's OK with you guys. We can firm up a time based on both of your availability. 90 minutes to 2 hours should be more than enough for the first session. Depending on how things go we will have follow-ups until you guys are hitting peak form and distance.

I met with another Atlantis owner today for a tune-up and hit a 155 foot cast with him as a witness today. Details: I could only one time out of several tries, although 130-140 was pretty consistent, strong tailwind, 45 ft 650 grain shooting head with slickshooter 50# running line (115 ft) and a 10 ft leader to the backing knot. The setup totals 170 ft but due to loss of loop form after 140ft I am deducting 15 feet from total distance.

The head is only practical for fishing up to 120-125 feet in real life because of the problems with having too much running line in the stripping basket. Given a better basket... who knows.

Most importantly several key concepts were communicated that will improve his experience and abilities with the Atlantis. I look forward to the follow-up session to see if he is able to retain the adjustments, which require practice but have big returns on investment.

Specifically:

1) Introduced a smooth backcasting method that uses less power but more efficient energy transfer, not to mention a smooth and turbulence free shape to draw against for the start of the forward stroke.

2) Talked about the importance of straight rod path in two-handed casting, and tricks for tracking the rod tip via tracking of the hands. Also talked about vee-grip and stroke alignment, cleaning up hooking strokes and the wall trick. We used the freshly laid chalk lines on the soccer field as reference lines for line and rod tracking.

3) Stressed correction of power application - not enough of pre-load was occurring at the start of the stroke. The rod crept forward without a bend and the last part of the stroke had to produce all the energy in the speed-up and stop without the benefit of an early load to pull forth into it.

4) Talked about progressing thru three steps: (1) a low energy, high efficiency "clean" cast; then (2) smoothly increasing acceleration while staying clean; then (3) using an extended stroke with with increased acceleration.

Because the student was also a spey caster, he did not have much problem with line handling and his stroke was usually high and hard enough to propel a good loop well over 100' consistently. Even with the power application all at the end he rarely tailed because he was careful to apply the power below the tracking path of the line.

Two-handed overhead casting is first and foremost about a clean stroke, then it's about taking advantage of the power inherent in an IM8 11ft two-handed thunder stick to do more with said stroke. You can't use power to correct casting problems, but you can add a little bit of power to a clean stroke and get a lot in return.

Looking forward to meeting you guys on Sunday!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18  
Old 07-19-2004, 01:34 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Great meeting up with you guys again.

The Airflo 35 ft type III head on the polyshoot Dick had felt light yet shot very well, in fact it was best to use a light touch to get the most out of that setup. The best way to maximize that shooting head's distance was to:

1) ensure a clean straight path of the rod tip throughout the stroke
2) load and unload the rod smoothly with acceleration, don't over power it
3) use the underhand pull a little more to keep it snappy (not too much)
4) stop the rod high and let the line fly further

The rod could handle a little more grains than that head but it was plenty to load it and the head shot well with very little effort at all provided the stroke was straight and the timing / angle good on the hard stop.

One note: starting too early forward from a backcast (creep) will take away from that initial load on the rod that gets accelerated forward... that start-up inertia is very important for maximizing the load in the rod coming forward thru the increasing acceleration of the stroke leading up to the stop. Get a strong enough backcast to straighten the line, but start loading against the backcast with your forward stroke before the leader jumps out straight but not while a length of flyline would still need to be straightened before the rod loads on the forward cast.

Alignment of the casting stroke is absolutely critical with two-handers. Use the hand on wall exercise I showed you to help teach your hand to track true, and don't forget to coordinate your bottom hand as well as the top. Things should improve dramatically as it does not take much power to get over 100' cast consistently with a clean stroke. Effort is minimal when the loop passes through a small imaginary cylinder in the air.

Practice both sides, and take time to perfect the backcast.

The SA Intermediate 12wt line Brendan had was a pleasure to cast and shot to the backing knot without much trouble. With 30ft of line it did not really load the surf-tamer but the nice thing was you could continue to aerilialize more line and get a smooth and full load into the rod before shooting the rest. Very nice feel to it.

This more-line casting style lends itself well to nicely tapered longer belly lines and feels quite natural. However shorter compact heads in various densities are sometimes better for throwing big flies, fishing fast deep rips, etc - especially when the fly is stripped in to the leader butt in order to fish it effectively. Both should be learned and practiced.

With two-handed rods the ideal loading and unloading of the energy would occur between 10:30 and 1:30 as opposed to opening down to the horizontal on the forward stroke. If the loading and release of the energy is on the forward half with almost a horizontal rod stop, the line goes forward with a larger "nose" (open forward loop). This larger shape is less wind resistant and does not allow for casting of shorter head lines which require an efficient shooting technique. Where almost any line can be cast effectively with a two-handed high stroke from 10:30-1:30 on the dial, the forward nose will only work well when enough line can be aerialized during the false casting build-up.

Because of the proper loading of the rod, the line was shooting out to the backing in this case, but again the shooting head would not have fared well and a headwind would kill that cast in it's tracks.

I would recommend to all two-handed overhead casters:

- Practice a 'perfect baby loop' with minimal energy and build up power slowly
- practice the Scandinavian underhand stroke to identify with your bottom hand
- practice a stroke that loads (low speed) well back of 12:00 and speeds up
to stop crisply at 10:30

A suggestion I would make is try to stay put where the rod stop on the backcast and start applying the load back there. Acclerate the rod over midnight and stop it sharply at 10:30-10am on the virtual clock to let the loop carry forth on a straight arrow path at a higher column in the air. Although coming forward and punching the loop ahead near the horizontal works with longer headed lines, the higher stroke will work with all lines (weight forward, shooting heads, spey taper lines, etc.) It will also ensure maximum distance shooting running line and lead to tight loop development.

I enjoyed and learned a lot in the exercise, especially that I need to work on a way to describe the circle-spey backcast to non-spey casters

My biggest take-away was that the basics are the most important part of casting two-handers, the rest is just acceleration and extending stroke. Get the basics and good casts just 'happen'.

best,
Juro

Any Atlantis owners who would like to join in on these refinement workshops please let me know.

BTW - glad you guys liked the 9/10wt all-arounder.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19  
Old 07-19-2004, 02:57 PM
grizz0707 grizz0707 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Delaware/Lehigh rivers
Posts: 123
placement of hands

Hi Juro,
When I come up in August if you me to bring pro digital camera to photograph hand positions and line control just let me know.

fish we must
chuck
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20  
Old 07-20-2004, 09:29 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
good idea! I should have my video camera back by then too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21  
Old 07-20-2004, 09:46 AM
Doc Duprey Doc Duprey is offline
deeply obsessed fly-guy
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NJ, NY, PA, MD, VA, RI
Posts: 372
[QUOTE=juro]


Any Atlantis owners who would like to join in on these refinement workshops please let me know.

Juro,

I for one would be VERY interested in such a workshop...I need to get ready for the fall migration and blitz city here in New Jersey!

Just let me/us know when and where.

Best regards,

-Doc
__________________
Steve "Doc" Duprey
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22  
Old 07-20-2004, 10:25 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Doc -

Andrew Moy of Tightlines Flyfishing and I have been discussing a Sandy Hook Clave during the fall migration. Might as well hit Montauk while there too. I have a number of events stacking up in September but if October is not too late it would work for me as a way to say good bye to the stripers until 2005. Sobering thought, eh? Thank goodness for Fly Shows!

We will definitely put on a two-hander clinic then. Also some big fly discussion and surf fishing technique demonstrations should be part of the agenda.

Anyone who would be interested in a Grand Finale Clave please reply. Sandy Hook / Montauk Grand Slam Finale Clave, early October most likely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23  
Old 07-20-2004, 12:16 PM
Doc Duprey Doc Duprey is offline
deeply obsessed fly-guy
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NJ, NY, PA, MD, VA, RI
Posts: 372
Two-handed casting 1-2-3

Just as a small tidbit of info...

October ROCKS here in Jersey. Things can get really good with lots of fish and lots of action on the beaches...so come on down!

Seriously, if there is anything I can do to help you and Drew get things set up for a Grand Finale Clave, just say the word.

Best regards,

-Doc
__________________
Steve "Doc" Duprey
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24  
Old 07-20-2004, 01:38 PM
FishHawk FishHawk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,039
Would love to do a Jorsey Clave on Doc' s Turf. Would need to know well in advance for part-time job purposes. FishHaw
__________________
FishHawk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two-Handed Overhead Casting Rods Greg Pavlov Stripers and Coastal Gamefish 28 01-21-2003 10:26 AM
Two-Handed Casting Clinic? 2HandTheSalt Stripers and Coastal Gamefish 10 03-26-2002 03:48 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 AM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)