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  #16  
Old 02-29-2004, 05:26 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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Keith,

The last time I looked at the 36890 hook was 6 months ago, and they had all the problems I mentioned in my prior post. I have not bought nor tied on Mustad salmon or trout hooks for 16 years because I got tired of the problems with the hooks. I also quit tying on Partridge hooks 13 years ago because they had problems with the quality of the hook finish (many hooks even had surface rust on them) and poorly formed eye or bent shanks. To be fair, Partridge always put extra hooks in the package when there were hooks with the finish and shank problems in the same package; however, I don't think the poor hooks should have been in the package in the first place.

I gladly pay more for quality hooks that don't have these problems. And for those who may ask, yes, I only use Daichii hooks for commercial tying too.

The price difference between cheap and highest quality hooks is really not a very large portion of the cost of a fly. It amazes me the number of times I've seen people buy #1 Metz and Hoffman capes, and then go cheap for hooks. Also, very few tyers really need #1 or even #2 capes for tying dry flies. Unless you are going to be tying a lot of #20 and smaller flies, a #3 cape will provide all the hackle you need. In fact, the only time commercial tyers buy anything other than #3 capes is when they have orders for a lot of hackled flies #20 or smaller.
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2004, 01:35 PM
Don Johnson Don Johnson is offline
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Like a lot of things with fly tying and fishing, there are personal opinions not to mention the fact that certain things have their respective place for reasons that may not be readily apparent. With that said, I will gladly admit to tying on Mustad hooks because in certain circumstances it is rediculous not to. Two examples off the top of my head are a couple patterns I have for searun cutthroat and holding salmon fishing in salt water and a pattern I tie for steelhead (a string leech variation.

In the former, at certain time of the year, the fish seem to have an aversion to nickel and/or stainless hooks and a bronzed hook seems to be the only thing that will work. Because the flies don't last long as they are lost to fish, oyster beds, snags or eventually rust, it doesn't make much sense to spend the dough on hooks that are top end when less expensive substitutes will work fine. This is why I use the Mustad 3366.

With the latter pattern, the Mustad salmon iron forms the lead hook in a tandem setup and has the bend cut from it. I would no more think of cutting up a Daiichi ior Tiemco iron than I would cross in front of a moving bus which is why the 36890 works well for that particular situation.
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  #18  
Old 03-24-2004, 01:59 PM
kjackson kjackson is offline
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An addendum

Don makes some good points. I've started tying experimental SRC patterns on bronze hooks for a couple of reasons, one of which is that I have a large supply, and I don't mind throwing them away after a couple of uses, especially if the pattern doesn't work out.

Late last week, I was talking with Jeff Pierce, who is the fly hook sales manager for Mustad. He said that the company is coming out with a new salmon iron this year, and a lot of the features he brought up as being incorporated are some of those mentioned in this thread.

The hook will be in the Signature series, the premium Mustad brand that has been excellent in my limited testing. He also mentioned that there will be a new version of the black nickel 80200 ringed-eye streamer hook that should be out this year, that being the style of hook that started this thread.

Keith
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  #19  
Old 03-24-2004, 03:33 PM
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JDJones JDJones is offline
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Salmon hooks

There are hooks, and there are hooks. But why does an Alec Jackson salmon hook have to cost $0.75 apiece? :eyecrazy:
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  #20  
Old 03-24-2004, 05:29 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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JD,

If you buy them buy them in a box of 100, they only cost $.45 to .58 each. Frankly, I don't care that they cost what they do, they are an excellent hook and use them exclusively on spey flies. Be the way, the new Tiempco Spey Hook is pretty nearly the same cost as well.

Standard Daiichi salmon hooks aren't cheap either, nor are their low-water salmon irons, or for that matter their trout and bass hooks. However, I'd rather use high quality hooks, regardless of the cost. And I do so on flies for my own fishing and for those I tie commercially for shops.

Don,

If I were tying on bronze hooks for the salt, I'd use the Mustad 3366 too, even though they are not of very good quality. The salt eats up bronze hooks so fast, that I agree using cheap bronze hooks makes perfect sense. Same with the string leech or other trailing hook set-up. Use the high quality, expensive hook for the trailer and use a cheapo for the front one.
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  #21  
Old 03-24-2004, 05:57 PM
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flyfisha1 flyfisha1 is offline
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Re: An addendum

Quote:
Originally posted by kjackson
...He also mentioned that there will be a new version of the black nickel 80200 ringed-eye streamer hook that should be out this year, that being the style of hook that started this thread.

Keith
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  #22  
Old 03-25-2004, 03:26 PM
Don Johnson Don Johnson is offline
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hooks in the salt

Quote:
Originally posted by flytyer
If I were tying on bronze hooks for the salt, I'd use the Mustad 3366 too, even though they are not of very good quality. The salt eats up bronze hooks so fast, that I agree using cheap bronze hooks makes perfect sense. Same with the string leech or other trailing hook set-up. Use the high quality, expensive hook for the trailer and use a cheapo for the front one.

Russ,
Semantics I know but 3366s are bronzed carbon steel, not bronze, but you know that. The 3366s last just as long in the salt as the tinned hooks if the coating has been compromised. Once the coating on the hook has been degraded (such as by crimping the barb for example) the ensuing corrosion will eat them up in no time regardless of whether they are tinned or bronzed or japanned. I use the 3366s because I lose a lot of them in oyster beds, on rocks and to poor casting. Being the quintessential tightwad that I am I can't see punishing a Daiichi, high end Mustad or Tiemco like that.

Anyway, stainless seems to last longer because the entire hook is resistant, not just the outer coating.

Now, the more pertinent question is why does a bronzed hook work better? I haven't been able to do any studies on this but the theory some of us have is that the electrolysis occuring when a metal hook is in the water may be a turn-off. As it is with a bronzed hook (or japanned) the hook is actually "encapsulated" by the nonmetallic coating thus preventing electrolysis from occuring. Or maybe it is just a function of the bronzed hook being less visible to the fish. Who knows.

I think a fish can "feel" or sense something like electrolysis just like you or I can smell a hamburger and fries, but it's not a proven theory. Maybe we need a Federal Grant to study the phenomenon...or maybe it's already been done.

Any thoughts?
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  #23  
Old 03-25-2004, 04:51 PM
flytyer flytyer is offline
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Don--

I suspect it has to do with a bronzed hook being less visible. Alec Jackson mentioned to me quite a few years ago that there had been a study done on hook color and underwater visibility. He told me that white colored hooks were found to be least visible, followed by stippled grey (like the grey shadow hooks of Partridge), then bronze. Black was the most visible hook color of all, with dark blue very close to black. Bright silver or nickel was also not very visible underwater unless the sun glinted off it.

There may be something to the electrolysis theory; but I honestly don't know.
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