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Classic Atlantic Salmon No pursuit rivals salmon rivers, flies & legacy

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  #16  
Old 02-13-2004, 01:36 PM
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Thank you Charlie, you put things much more eloquently than I ever could.
I was tired after another long day fishing the Spey. Today I had the pleasure of Andy Wren’s company but all we could muster were last years models.
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  #17  
Old 02-13-2004, 02:22 PM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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irish netting

hi gardener, as usual i totally disagree with what you say. you say you dont defend drift nets but you dont attack {irish boycott } either. you seem happy with status quo. it is not about rod anglers self interest {in your book some kind of rich toff} its about anyone who can add up without taking his socks off seeing where the real value lies and adopting a strategy to achieve the obviously sensible economic position, and conservation instead of slaughter. there are no other conservation issues i can think of where economic benefit goes so clearly with conservation. this cant about morality is just that. the position of netsmen is ' i've been robbing you for many years so i have a'right' to go on robbing you. they dont nurture the eggs or the parr, they dont feed the growing fish, they bring nothing to the party. they harvest immesurably more fish than rod anglers ever did but you talk of morality. i dont see it no thinking rod angler should rest until the last net has been burnt. then you introduce this red herring about individual river systems being harvested selectively, ' give me a break ' netsmen are not choir boys. on same subject govt bodies never seem to introduce anything but blanket restrictions countrywide which seems to militate against your argument that each river should be looked at separately. you seem remarkably complacent about grilse shrinking. we have to get militant- ALL NETS MUST GO or forget angling tourism. i wonder if topher can give us some idea how many fish NA anglers are killing to compare with irish nets.
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  #18  
Old 02-13-2004, 03:38 PM
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Paul,
You make some sweeping statements, how do you know what Gardener does or does not do. He has stated that he opposes the Irish drift nets. I oppose the Irish drift nets everyone opposes the Irish drift nets.

Now let us move on and discuss localised netting. This is carried out on rivers that have an excess of salmon. Let us take for example the Thurso River, the Thurso is owned by the same estate; they own all the fishing and the localised netting rights. They subsidise the cost of the rod fishing by net fishing, if there are few fish in the river they keep the nets off.
Your, I use the term loosely, sentence>> . they dont nurture the eggs or the parr, they dont feed the growing fish, they bring nothing to the party. they harvest immesurably more fish than rod anglers ever did but you talk of morality>> In Scotland the net fishermen contribute to the fishery board who decide whether it is better to improve habitat, reduce the “harvest” or build the hatcheries which nurture the eggs etc. Remember hatcheries are not the answer to the salmon’s problems stocking of excess stock to main rivers cause more problems than they alleviate. Strangely the fishery board levy, amount paid, is based on fish caught the nets men’s contributions could be larger than the rod fishermen although they get less seats on the board. Some Scottish boards have found that they are very poor having bought out the nets.

Nets men obviously do not wish to see the demise of salmon runs; they would be out of work and would receive no compensation
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  #19  
Old 02-13-2004, 04:04 PM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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netting

hi willie gunn, nice to have you back. no i dont know what you or gardener 'do' about high seas nets. BUT as i see it you repeat like a mantra ' of course we disapprove' in about 2 sentences, and then move on to a spread of minutiae defending the present system of estuary nets. if rivers were heaving with fish you might make a case, personally i would rather fish were allowed back into rivers unmolested. BUT the opposite is happenning, our rivers are deteriorating and you both defend the present system, when i believe we should all be making it clear we will boycott these mass killers and the areas or bodies that license them. thurso as the most remote river in uk like russia is not relevant to this discussion. for the record my friends and i have agreed to boycott ireland completely and all things irish, and we boycott those rivers in scotland whose attitude and petty regulations we find distasteful. up till 2 years ago 10 couples in a group spent over 30,000 every april, including guests from abroad. no fish, bad attitude locally and we're out of here, and i know many old regulars feeling the same. regretably thats the spey!
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  #20  
Old 02-13-2004, 04:34 PM
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You decide what you wish to do, but the Spey river board have decided the future of salmon are more important than anglers taking home a fish. Hence the catch and release rules, the Spey is booked to it's usual level, so you are not really missed.

The Thurso may be a remote river to you but not to me, everything is relative.

I am afraid your attitude that no one may kill any fish so that I can is wrong, selfish, dated, and has no place in modern salmon management.
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  #21  
Old 02-13-2004, 04:43 PM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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netting

willie gunn, i think you're losing it so we had better close this thread. i never mentioned me killing fish, my argument is get them in the river. i think your horror at thought of angler killing a fish versus your complacency over mass killing of nets is untenable. your complacency over modern river management presiding over the decline of a once great river is awsome.
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  #22  
Old 02-13-2004, 04:55 PM
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Yes I agree we should stop, one of us understands salmon management and the other has no clue
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  #23  
Old 02-13-2004, 05:00 PM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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netting

oh dear!
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  #24  
Old 02-18-2004, 11:39 AM
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A bit of an update

Well Juro (and the rest of you who remeber me)

I'm back after a long absence.

Have a little to contribute to this one.

First off here is a link to a report on the commercial and rod catches in Ireland:

http://www.cfb.ie/pr/salmonstats03.htm

this is a press release and there is a link to the full report (pdf).

Probably the most important thing to take from this is that the figure of 500,000 is a fiction which was floated unchallenged into a reputable angling mag in the UK despite contrary evidence in the public realm.

The next is to notice that the catches have declined as tighter quotas (TACs) have been applied, not as tight as recommended by the scientists but that is a different debate.

After that I'd just like to draw your attention to how commercial drifting operates. It is not a high seas activity - it is inshore, in fact it is confined to the 6 mile limit and any netters outside the limit risk their boat, gear and licence. These fishermen mostly catch salmon of Irish extraction. Tagging studies by EU researchers back this up.

Also in general drift netting is prohibited each night between the hours of 9 p.m. and 4 a.m. the following morning on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights and from 9 p.m. on Thursday night until 6 a.m. the next following Friday morning. There is no fishing at weekends. The season is very short, from June to the end of July. (Nets are also limited.) These conservation measures were introduced to ensure an "acceptable" (not necessarily to me) escapement of salmon to rivers.

Commercial netting of salmon persists in the UK and Northern Ireland, so to say Ireland is destroying the British salmon stocks is inaccurate and also over looking the domestic threats of pollution and development which are severely impacting on those stocks. The same treats (should include hydro developments here) are the real cause of the salmon's decline in Ireland as well.

for more info and a pic of draft netting in operation see this link

http://www.cfb.ie/fishing_net/salmon_fishing.htm

Now having said all that I am not pro netting, but I am a patriot and will not stand by while the Irish blamed for our neighbours' woes. Also I believe that the integrity of this forum requires debate to be based on facts so the information above is for clarity and to give the real background to the situation.

As those who remember me from the old days can testify I am committed to anlging of all kinds and passionate about the conservation of fish and fishing in Ireland.

So back with a bang then!

Mylo
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  #25  
Old 02-18-2004, 01:25 PM
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Mylo

Great to have you back here with us!
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  #26  
Old 02-18-2004, 01:58 PM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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irish wild smoked salmon

hi mylo, welcome back, i cant resist a well presented fly either! we all know about lies and statistics and govt pseudo scientists who tell us farmed salmon is good for us! however accepting for a moment that some of the figures one reads may have been inflated i also dont believe that netsmen to say the least underrecord their catch! i also dont see how they get such precise figures for rod caught fish. however using their last set of figures 2002 13% of salmon { and sea trout, to confuse things } were apparently caught by rod anglers, 2/3 of rod anglers reporting never caught a thing. kerry has the largest quota and catch [ but as gardener posted at the start of this there are no major salmon rivers but it is the corner where ongoing fish to other countries swing left ]. i agree the fisheries board under pressure is setting reduced quotas [ but these are still well above tame scientists sustainable catch ]. your fisheries minister a couple of years ago recognised the problem and said he would stop it, he then reneged and at that point many of us decided to boycott ireland until this slaughter is ended. why cant they see that if the netted fish were free to return, a very small number caught on a rod would more than pay for nets and revive angling tourism. i would even back a special levy on fish caught by visitors, but lets get fish back into rivers and then we can assess C&R or whatever. ps i'm 1/2 irish, this is not anti people its anti govt.
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  #27  
Old 02-19-2004, 02:56 AM
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on counting fish

Over here every single salmon (and sea trout over 40cm) has to be tagged and recorded.

This is the case for anglers and netsmen. It reduces the error introduced by "working up" sub samples, but of course is open to abuse by those dedicated to confounding best efforts.

I understand why people take stands on issues like this but believe me, by staying away you only hurt the local angling guides and accommodation providors. The politicos and ministers who perpetuate the problem could care less if you fish here or not.

But anyway... I start my fly season proper on 1 March on my local river. It's just a trout water, but it keeps me entertained. I'll be leaving the salmon alone until the summer comes 'round.

Best of luck to you all in 2004.

Looking forward to getting involved here again.

Mylo
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  #28  
Old 02-19-2004, 04:01 AM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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wild irish smoked salmon

thanks mylo, enjoy your trout fishing. i agree with everything you say but i come to a different conclusion. there will be collateral damage to innocent ghillies and local pubs and services but their protests need to be added to ours to eventually get the polliticos to do something. even they cant enjoy seeing themselves 'slagged' everywhere. as long as they allow netting [ in this case of 6% of WORLDS remaining mature atlantics every year { nat geographic july 2003 ]] zero tolerance until nets are gone!
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  #29  
Old 02-19-2004, 05:42 AM
fredaevans fredaevans is offline
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Gentlemen: a great read.

Has a 'url' to this thread been posted to the UK board?
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  #30  
Old 02-19-2004, 06:10 AM
paul locke paul locke is offline
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hi fred, thanks for your interest. i am an older generation near computer illiterate, fisherman who is completely lost how to respond [nice change some wil say!] as far as i know URLs are what keep getting people into trouble re sponsors and thats all i know! sorry i cant answer your question, paul
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