Gel Spun Backing Pros and Cons - Fly Fishing Forum
Worldwide Flyfishing Discussion Talk flyfishing with members around the world!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-04-2004, 08:08 AM
mcutchin mcutchin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 20
Gel Spun Backing Pros and Cons

For anyone curious about whether or not to use Gel Spun backing, I posted a summary yesterday at http://www.midcurrent.com/blog/archives/000399.html.

Marshall
__________________
Marshall Cutchin
http://www.midcurrent.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 02-05-2004, 12:34 PM
yukon delta yukon delta is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Yukon River
Posts: 49
Nice article. Thanks for the info.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 02-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Maxg Maxg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 162
I actually forgot I put that stuff on Flyshop, but generally the choice to use GsP is pretty easy to make, for a few reasons already detailed. But it has a lot more things NOT going for it than going for it and it is fragile stuff.
If you are going to use it for methods other than fly, I suggest you ALWAYS use the coaxial braided loop system to terminate the GsP braid. For one thing it provides a loop and you can attach clips to loops and you can use the "Stuffed" system to produce no stretch roll on leaders for bottom bouncing and trolling. But each to his own opinion. It's a subject that has many workable systems. But there is no difference between Dyneema and Spectra except that AlliedSignal in the USA has the distribution right for the Americas, Toyobo has the Far East rights, Japan, Taiwan and Korea and they produse Dyneema. Australiam GsP braids are Dyneema and Bionic Braid is Dyneema from Holland, but not necessarily made by DSM HPF, more likely Toyobo in Japan. who actually ship product to Holland.
Some american companies market Dyneema braids and they will have been braided in either Japan or Taiwan.
Its kind of messy really. Max
__________________
Max
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 02-05-2004, 02:33 PM
mcutchin mcutchin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 20
Gel Spun

Max,

Are you saying that you would avoid using it in most circumstances?

Thanks for the reply.

Marshall
__________________
Marshall Cutchin
http://www.midcurrent.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 02-06-2004, 12:34 PM
Maxg Maxg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 162
Absolutely not, but it is fragile, slippery, has terrible abrasion resistance and lousy knot strength, it's hard to terminate with any sort of long term security, fails miserably in reef situations, hates rod runners, holes in spools and cuts fingers like scalpels, is very expensive which is the down side but it is very low drag, low stretch very thin and very strong, which is the up side.
No I wouldn't miss the GsP experience, but I do exercise choices when it comes to using it in certain places. Sometimes like with fly gear you have to use it as backing for the up side. Like I would NEVER use a GsP line under 20lb for anything it's so fragile it breaks if you breath on it. With low b/s lines if it touches something even moderately sharp it disintegrates instantly.
It actually makes the best shooting line imaginable, in clean water situations, braided over a monofilament core like that old Berkley UltraMax. I have some line like that and it's great.
The stuff I have is a 50lb GsP line braided over a 10lb mono core and another 200lb hollow braid that is very easily stuffed with 10kg mono. It can be spliced quite easily and shoots like grease.
I was pointing out that the manufacture and license agreements are messy and there are a lot of commercial claims that simply can't be substantiated. Too much commercial hype about it and the wonderful GsP products out there.
One serious problem is that big companies get it braided by little companies all over the place which means that lines under one brand name can come out of a dozen little braiders, who might or might not be a class act. For example one company claims to have 4000 machines, but the reality is that the 4000 is the sum of about 100 seperate companies who braid under contract.

GsP is great, Max
__________________
Max
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 02-06-2004, 03:36 PM
yukon delta yukon delta is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Yukon River
Posts: 49
Gentlemen, I find this a fascinating discussion. I'm just an amateur eavesdropping among professionals but this is great stuff.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 02-07-2004, 04:34 PM
Bob Pauli Bob Pauli is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: From the Trinity to the Kispiox
Posts: 612
m & M,

Many thanks for the GsP information.

Do either of you have an opinion of Geoff Wilson's knot books regarding GsP?

Mr. Wilson claims that many GsP lines have tensile breaking strengths far beyond that advertised on the spool's label. Testing knots in such materials without predetermining tensile strength independently would misrepresent the % effectiveness of a knot, and is perhaps the source of claims for "100% knots" in GsP. Do you agree?

m & M, great job! Thank you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 02-20-2004, 12:00 PM
Maxg Maxg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 162
Well you have to remember that the product is Gel Spun Polyethylene and it has a high modulus, which effects the knot strength of the braided line because high modulus means critical radius, which means that if the knot tightens up under tension that critical radius might actually be exceeded by any number of individual fibres. That being fact it seems that people want to attempt to change what the inventors DSM HPF in Holland and the Diety provide. Once the chemical parameters have been set man is out of the equasion really.
Testing GsP is not easy because of the low stretch, like 3.6% average, Most testing machines are set at IGFA standard for mono lines, like 400mm/minute. To test GsP you really need to get down to 100mm/minute to reduce the snatch load effect of the faster rate.
There are any number of knots out there but they get more and more complex as people try to change the fibre parameters. No knot in GsP fibres, ie braided lines gets to 100%, EVER, no matter who says what. Thatsafact. Ask DSM HPF. Give them a ring.
When you get people saying that a line breaks at 120% of the b/s figure on the box, you are looking at fantasy. The breaking strain of a line is what it breaks at, regardless of the figure on the box. Most manufacturers do not critically test their product nor do they have 100% quality control, but you can expect that it will not break under the figure on the box.
You can figure all this out yourself. Get a 6 foot length of 50lb Gudebrod braided monofilament and a length of 20lb GsP braid, Spectra or Dyneema it doesn't matter. Now using a needle insert the GsP braid about 6 inches into the 50lb mono braid, and using a needle applicator and a bottle of Loctite 406 CA glue, put one little drop anywhere along the junction of the GsP and mono braid. Let it cure and start pulling. If the glued joint gives out before the 20lb GsP line breaks you have done something wrong.
Anyway that little glued joint will be 100% regardless of the actual b/s of the braid line. But it tells you that knots are superflous in GsP braid, you do not need them, You can get 100% connections by using other methods. Or use a uni knot and one drop of glue. That knot is 100% every time.If the knot does its job once and you catch a fish tie another one and keep going.
There are too many furfys about GsP braids, it's a bloody awful line really but it has a place in todays fishing sports. Just use it properly and you are in a gold mine. Max
__________________
Max
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 02-20-2004, 12:14 PM
Maxg Maxg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 162
PS there are two things we are talking about here, one is the breaking strain of the knot, where the knot itself fails before the main line breaks. A 100% knot is where the line breaks before the knot fails. The knot break figure is where the knot fractures.
Like a Spider Hitch fractures inside the knot at 48% of the main line B/S, and a standard Uni Knot breaks around 80% of the main line B/S. A 45 twist Bimini will fail somewhere between 80% and 90% depending on how well its tied. Some other connections may approach 95% but they are few and far between and those that do are critical, and some are so complex that you need to be a double jointed acrobat with 4 arms and three legs to tie the things.
And when you have knots wizzing through runners you can get runner strike which breaks fibres in knots and reduces the B/S. You can get critical radius fracture if there are sharp edge holes in reel spools because you need to load the line at high tension and liberally cross hatched. It needs care and attention to detail to get the best out of GsP, or use a line 3 or 4 times the B/S you really need. That cures all the problems. Max
__________________
Max
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 02-20-2004, 12:16 PM
Maxg Maxg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 162
Well you have to remember that the product is Gel Spun Polyethylene and it has a high modulus, which effects the knot strength of the braided line because high modulus means critical radius, which means that if the knot tightens up under tension that critical radius might actually be exceeded by any number of individual fibres. That being fact it seems that people want to attempt to change what the inventors DSM HPF in Holland and the Diety provide. Once the chemical parameters have been set man is out of the equasion really.
Testing GsP is not easy because of the low stretch, like 3.6% average, Most testing machines are set at IGFA standard for mono lines, like 400mm/minute. To test GsP you really need to get down to 100mm/minute to reduce the snatch load effect of the faster rate.
There are any number of knots out there but they get more and more complex as people try to change the fibre parameters. No knot in GsP fibres, ie braided lines gets to 100%, EVER, no matter who says what. Thatsafact. Ask DSM HPF. Give them a ring.
When you get people saying that a line breaks at 120% of the b/s figure on the box, you are looking at fantasy. The breaking strain of a line is what it breaks at, regardless of the figure on the box. Most manufacturers do not critically test their product nor do they have 100% quality control, but you can expect that it will not break under the figure on the box.
You can figure all this out yourself. Get a 6 foot length of 50lb Gudebrod braided monofilament and a length of 20lb GsP braid, Spectra or Dyneema it doesn't matter. Now using a needle insert the GsP braid about 6 inches into the 50lb mono braid, and using a needle applicator and a bottle of Loctite 406 CA glue, put one little drop anywhere along the junction of the GsP and mono braid. Let it cure and start pulling. If the glued joint gives out before the 20lb GsP line breaks you have done something wrong.
Anyway that little glued joint will be 100% regardless of the actual b/s of the braid line. But it tells you that knots are superflous in GsP braid, you do not need them, You can get 100% connections by using other methods. Or use a uni knot and one drop of glue. That knot is 100% every time.If the knot does its job once and you catch a fish tie another one and keep going.
There are too many furfys about GsP braids, it's a bloody awful line really but it has a place in todays fishing sports. Just use it properly and you are in a gold mine. Max
__________________
Max
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
gel spun backing? SteelBoneguy Bonefish, Tarpon, and other Obsessions 3 02-01-2006 09:40 AM
Gel spun vs. Dacron backing 8xmidge Gear Talk - Fly Stuff Spoken Here 6 05-23-2005 07:43 PM
Gel-spun Backing? craig Bluewater Extreme 8 08-05-2003 07:56 AM
Gel-Spun Backing JErwin Gear Talk - Fly Stuff Spoken Here 8 04-07-2003 06:27 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)