SURVEY: Striper Lines - Fly Fishing Forum
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  #1  
Old 07-07-2003, 12:36 PM
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SURVEY: Striper Lines

Target audience: striper fishermen who use intermediate and sinking head lines in the 8, 9 or 10wt range.

Participation is important to impact of results, thanks in advance.

I would like to gather your opinions on the use of intermediate lines which are a single color throughout. Particularly if you also use sinking head lines like the Cortland QD, Rio Deep Sea, Orvis Depth Charge or the original Teeny T series lines.

Everyone I've spoken with on this topic likes the color change and feels it is a great advantage to be able to tell just where the head is for overhead casting. The addition of a color change is a recent addition made by Simon and the guys over at Rio to all their Spey lines because the head length is important for the caster to know for each cast. Airflo has incorporated a slight bump where the hands should have the line for optimal casting, which is a good idea too because it works well under low-to-no light conditions. I think this is also very important to the striper flyfisher and would like to pursue the development of such a line with our sponsors and friends in the industry.

Why?

Faster determination of proper grains in the air for the next cast, therefore more time swimming a fly, which inevitably means more fish.

Flats fishermen can especially relate to the value of a faster re-deployment of a cast to moving fish.

Simplify teaching and learning of casting SW lines.

Uniformity of casting style between sinking head lines and intermediate lines, no need to adjust the stroke so much after swapping spools.
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2003, 12:36 PM
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This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

#2 - Would you buy it?

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length
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Old 07-07-2003, 03:11 PM
Sprocket Sprocket is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by juro
This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?
A: two-color line is important - clear head isn't important

#2 - Would you buy it?
A: Only if were in line, so to speak, price-wise.

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?
A: No but thought of doing so

#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?
A: 325

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length
A: 24' or 26'
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:25 PM
2HandTheSalt 2HandTheSalt is offline
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I LOVE that color change between the head and the running line, and wish it would be implemented on all fly lines.
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  #5  
Old 07-07-2003, 04:54 PM
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Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

A. Yes!

#2 - Would you buy it?

A. Yes

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

A. Yes, I have the Rio Striper line. No problem with weeed clog but the clunking on the strip was annoying but I got used to it. However, I suspect that the "clunk" gets transmitted down the line which can result in refusals - only a hunch but based on a couple of observations we made on the last cape trip. Makes sense - its the old "two cans on a piece of taut string" principle.

#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?

A. 300 grain - clear head is a presentation head not a distance head.

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length

A. 30ft would be nice.
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  #6  
Old 07-07-2003, 05:58 PM
Eddie Eddie is offline
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Answer to all questions posed: It depends on alot of things.

#1: I think it would be nice to have lines' weight marked by the factory. Cortland prints it, Teeny uses different color running lines, I mark them with a sharpie pen (long mark = 5 or 10, short = 1). I always forget what color from what brand is what, so colors make the least sense.
As far as marking the overhang, a bump isn't so great because everyone and every rod likes a different amount of head out of the tip. Some people like to tie in a nail knot of mono or use a sharpie to mark their sweet spot. A color change for this works well because you can see how much you like to have out.

2# : If it casts well, resists tangles, and is durable.

3# : I have only used interchangeable heads on my spey rods and fishing for steelhead. I hate the clunking feel and winding up 30' of shooting head is a pain. I would rather fish full lines on spools, but the potential to save money could be a good selling point.

4# : It depends on which rod I would be using it on, and how long the head was. A Sage RPLXi and Winston XTR have different needs. It would be cool if they offered saltwater lines in 50 gr. increments, and actually weighed the lines and marked the box (eg. : 329 gr.). When I weigh the lines, I am almost all ways surprised.

5 # : Both 26 and 30.

Until then, I will buy different lines for different rods, mark and chop and splice.
The Rio lines are very good, and I like the Airflow fast sinking heads. I find that I am using the intermediate lines less and less, and useing a floater more often.
Juro, if you need a line tester...
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  #7  
Old 07-07-2003, 08:27 PM
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Juro,
Here are my comments.
Hope to bump into you on 7/18 weekend.
Rooster


Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?
Yes

#2 - Would you buy it?

Yes

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

I am not a fan of the replacement tips, except for some of the shooting heads I used to use for stripers (and still use for CA Steelheads)

#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

I use a T350 and a Orvis Depth Charge of 425 gr. on most of the Cape. I also have a 550 gr. shooting head system that I will occasionally use for some tides/rips. The 425 gets the most use.

in the clear intermediate head?
I have used the Airflo Clear, Coldwater Saltwater for the past 3 seasons and really like it for the intermediate, does not coil up in the stripping basket, like some other lines I have used

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length

I have only used a 24' teeny in the 350 and the 30' (I think) in the Orvis Depth Charge. Both work well. No need to change.
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  #8  
Old 07-07-2003, 08:38 PM
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jfbasser jfbasser is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by juro
This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

Yes

#2 - Would you buy it?

Yes

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

No. I keep other lines on spare spools. Tried Spey tips, not fond of them.


#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?

300 possibly 250

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length

24

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  #9  
Old 07-07-2003, 08:51 PM
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striblue striblue is offline
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Juro...a good survey... the problem I have is that lines is the last think I think about... what I mean is that I have a number of lines and and reels... The first sinking lines I have is the Teeny.. which is on my 7 and 8 .... they tangle too much in the striping basket.....but the Deep sea Rio is the the sinking line I use, along with the Orvis depth charge... I just can't remember which line is on which rod and real... I divide the the high number lines with the heavier rods...650 with the 12 down to 350 on the 9. What complicates things is that ..for example I have three 10 weights... the very smooth,"old" Scott eclips, Stiff T & T Horizon and a middle flex Sage RPLXI... I rotate rods and can't for the life of me figure which line I have on those rods although they are all sinking lines. This is not helpful...but I think the rod action is more key than the lines.... they was once a time when you had only three lines... the floating, the intermiediate and the sinking..... is this more marketing than substance... not your question... but the manufacturers that is.
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  #10  
Old 07-08-2003, 08:18 AM
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John, can't help you with your surplus of equipment... unless of course you need to get rid of some

Pick up your favorite 9wt 9ft, ignore the rest, then consider the following:

- most striper anglers use an intermediate line and a sinking head line

- most sinking heads have a very useful color change, ALL intermediates do not

I would like to ask line manufacturers to build a clear intermediate head which is the parallel of the popular color change sinking heads - but the head is clear. I need consumer data to reinforce my request to them.

Why is this useful?

- it's easy to tell when your cast will work by just looking, this counts when you need a follow-up shot to a moving pod on the flats or if you are having people flyfish in salt for their first time, etc.

- it keeps you in the same groove whether you use the sinking head or the intermediate head - without that damn loop connection banging thru the guides all day

- less false casts, safer on a boat

- the running line doesn't need to be clear on a clear intermediate line. In fact I would argue that being clear detracts from it's usefulness. On the flats, if someone is lining fish beyond the first 30ft, they need casting lessons anyway

Whenever I switch between the two the differences are much more than they need to be. As a guide, starting with the 325 QD on the beach and coming inside with a clear int on the flats is a big change for most customers and it messes people up. It messes me up too. Most blown casts on the flats are due to the wrong amount of load at the time the shot was taken. That's kinda dumb when we already have a solution on the other spool with the wrong head on it.

Anyway, I hope to chat with w few line companies over the next few days so keep the reinforcements or honest rebuttals coming and let's see what we, the forum, can get accomplished!

thanks,
Juro
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  #11  
Old 07-08-2003, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by juro
This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?


It would be useful to know where the head starts on a clear intermediate line - one way or another. I personally don't like the idea of a 'bump' on the line to indicate where your hands 'should' be, as this will change for each person's style of casting, rod, fly, wind conditions, etc. I don't know if having a solid running line color is necessary, you could do a 6" section of color or something, just enough to indicate the change. I'm sure this would create a more complex manufacturing process which may add un-necessary cost.

#2 - Would you buy it?


I don't think this feature alone would cause me to purchase one line over another, I would be more concerned with the way it cast, loaded my particular rods, and how it held up over time. But all things being equal I'd probably take the line which had the head indicated.

If I really 'needed' this feature I'm sure I could rig something to my existing line to accomplish the same result. You could carefully apply a small section of colored heat-shrink tubing.. You could slide a piece of braided mono to the line and color it with a sharpie.. this would give you both a visual and a tactile sense for where the head began when you are casting at night.

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

The majority of my lines are single piece, with the exception of a spool that I have rigged with a shooting line which I use with 30' sections of LC-13 and/or Rio T-14.

#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?

Obviously it depends on the rod being used, but with my #10, I would probably prefer something in the 350-400 range, assuming it didn't affect the sink rate.

#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length


I have fished the 24' QD lines for the last five years and thought they were fine. I recently swithced to the 26' Rio Striper and really find it to be easier to cast. The shorter heads tend to 'dump' at the end of the cast sometimes. I haven't had good luck with the 30' integrated lines, but for some reason I don't have a problem with the 30' LC-13/T-14.
Good luck!

-- Tom
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  #12  
Old 07-08-2003, 08:30 AM
Mattb Mattb is offline
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Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

I've never really found the color change useful. It looks like I'm in the minority here, but I've always done it by feel, so I don't really pay any attention to the color change.


#2 - Would you buy it?

I wouldn't buy one just because of the color change.


#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

I've never tried exchangeable tips for striper fishing, I've always just carried a spare spool. I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to- exchanging tips on the water always seemed like it'd be too much of a pain.


#4 - Would you prefer:

4a) 300 grain
4b) 325 grain
4c) 350 grain
4d) 375 grain
4e) 400 grain
4f) 425 grain

in the clear intermediate head?


375 or 400


#5 - Would you prefer:

5a) 24' head length (QD, Teeny)
5b) 26' head length (Rio Striper)
5c) 30' head length (Wulff Triangle Taper)
5d) longer head length


26'

Quote:
- most sinking heads have a very useful color change, ALL intermediates do not
This isn't entirely true. I have a Rio clear intermediate that has a band of discolored glow in the dark running line just behind the head. It may not be a color change per se, but it's effectively the same thing.

-Matt
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  #13  
Old 07-08-2003, 09:22 AM
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Matt -

Appreciate the candor. Just curious, which sinking line do you use?

To your point we all cast by feel in that we feel our way out until the rod loads then we shoot. The issue is not one of feeling the rod load, it's one of assurance of <n> grains as a starting point. and thus eliminating the process of feeling out the grains. Not always necessary, but often helpful.

Consider this scenario:

A pod is approaching at 70 feet against the current at 11 o'clock. The fish are skittish today so we want a good lead cast and a down angle so make a long cast and wait for them.

BUT they turn to a wider angle to the left at 50 feet so the fly lays in waiting for nothing under the tension of the current pulling further away. We need to pick the fly up ASAP and get it in the path of these absolute pig stripers! They start to flash and roll on bait, one swirls and a tail pops out as they work further to the left. The moment is NOW!

Stripping, stripping, feels like that dream where you can't run fast enough... pick up the line and there's too much grains! The caster flails and the fish scatter from all the commotion as the line flops and flubs and can't get there from here.

Or there is not enough grains! The caster buggy whips back and forth as he tries to get enough into the air to make the 50 foot cast as the pod vanishes into deep water.

Of course I exaggerate but the advantage here is knowing the starting point before feeling the cast - no false casts at all, just one back cast and bang. There is no back and forth process to feeling the grains involved, you know it's going to be there and it is, just like frets on a guitar.

There's something good to be said about feeling one's way to the load, it's a critical flyfishing skill but in addition to all that I believe a mnemonic device for elimination of the process of getting there does have it's place.

.02, thanks again for the reply.
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  #14  
Old 07-08-2003, 11:10 AM
Mattb Mattb is offline
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Juro, I'm currently using a Sci Anglers wet tip express 375 Grain on a 10 weight. It has a grey head and red running line.

I was going to say that I don't pay any attention to the color break, but after thinking about your example above, I can think of a few times sight fishing when I've used the color break as a reference to pick up and recast. I hadn't really thought of that application before, but now that you bring it up, it makes sense.

I don't think the color break in an intermediate would be a deal breaker for me, but I could now see it swinging the decision between to similar lines.
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  #15  
Old 07-08-2003, 07:54 PM
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Thanks Juro...Good points...No..You can't have any equipment...unless off course you want to trade for that gorgeous long rod you are working on.
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