The dream lives... two hands on the beach today! - Fly Fishing Forum
Stripers and Coastal Gamefish Stripers, Blues, Inshore tuna!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-21-2003, 05:21 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
The dream lives... two hands on the beach today!

Since 1995, I have been experimenting with two-handed rods in the striper surf. Spey rods, which are seen a lot more lately, are the wrong rod for the job. Don't get me wrong, I love spey rods and fishing like few other things in life. It's ideal for salmon and steelhead fishing, and has some application in striper fishing but the majority of striper fishing is not spey fishing and there is a really applicable niche I have been chasing for almost a decade that just plain fits like a glove.

Some of the more recent two-handed overhead casting rods have come closer, but are not there for a number of reasons. A lot has changed since the day I handed my two-hander over to Jay Horton on Race Pt beach, his first time trying one several years ago. Over the last eight years, I've cut blanks, bought discontinued brand name rods, had rod builders whip together prototypes and listened to discouraging comments from people who think it's "not flyfishing". Hah! Two-handed flyrods are several centuries old and borne from the old country, and is very much at the core of flyfishing's history!

I provided a specification to Nobuo-san and in return, I received what I believe may be the embodiment of the dream. Light as a feather yet wreaking of power, these prototypes easily throw the whole Rio Deep Sea line with a single back cast on every attempt with a wad of yarn on the end.

I have yet to try them on water, but that will occur in a couple of hours... but I have a feeling that we will reach the beach with this one.

Nobuo, I am truly indebted and even more impressed with your magic than I was before - if that's possible. We still have much work ahead before production, but if this is where we start I am certain success is in the near future with the new striper two-hander that I have dreamed of for so long.

First field trial... gotta go now!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 06-21-2003, 07:21 AM
striblue's Avatar
striblue striblue is offline
President of CAC
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Plymouth and Chatham, MA
Posts: 7,518
Way to go Juro! Make it happen!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 06-21-2003, 07:23 AM
2HandTheSalt 2HandTheSalt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 301
Send a message via Yahoo to 2HandTheSalt
So, Juro, when are you going to hand that new one over to me?

I hope it is just the rod you have been dreaming about.

How long is it and what lines does it throw?

But more importantly, when do I get to try it?

So many beaches, so little time........

Jay Horton
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:14 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
It will be my pleasure to have you critique it Jay!

I had limited time so I ran up to the Plum Island surf and inlet. I started by throwing the deep sea 30' 350 head on the 10wt rod and it performed admirably although I really need to experiment much more with lines and the alternate segments Nobuo provided before I can even come close to conclusions.

I found that it is very lightweight yet extremely powerful. When in the retrieve position its length is quite manageable and feels only a bit longer than a single hander when retrieving. Suddenly as I was concentrating on how the rod fished a hard pull and the first fish on the new design was on... a bright PI schoolie. Handled it with authority, I need to get down to test it on some Chatham keepers

The action is very fast, may need to slow it down a hair to make it telegraph loadpoints more especially if it's used at night. This modulus however fires the line with authority when you keep the backcast and the stroke in the same plane.

I wandered out to the surfside where there was a big tide flume forming and two flyguys were taking waves in the face trying to fish it. I walked out so that the wash from the highest waves were thigh deep and was able to fire the line three times further than they could. I was not reaching the spin guys casts but was fishing a new level of reach on the beach for sure, and without standing in the waves. I got a little wet on one sleeve and that was it. Ready for the outer cape beaches test next.

The biggest problem I've encountered so far - there is no stripping basket made on earth that can handle the whole running line of a 100' line like the Rio Deep Sea. Using these rods, and equal challenge is to design a stripping basket that can handle all that running line. It felt as if the retrieve was going to last forever. But you know what they say... the more time your fly is in the water...

It's far from perfected yet. When the action has been perfected to be comfortable as well as authoritative, or when I find the right line that bends them the way they want to be loaded, I'll be glad to hand it over to anyone who wants to try 'em.

Right now there's a ton of experimentation to do in the weeks to come.

In the meantime, I may have made 4 or 5 false casts all day, and zero hauls or double hauls - yet fished most if not all of the flyline.

Several more feisty schoolies tested the tip of the rod as I worked back to the parking lot, but I'm gonna need a cow to put it to the metal to see how that part of this design passes muster!

BTW - the length and special handle design lends itself to easy landing and retrieving of the fly as hoped. These features will require little or no change before production.

More to come...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:39 PM
Doc Duprey Doc Duprey is offline
deeply obsessed fly-guy
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NJ, NY, PA, MD, VA, RI
Posts: 372
two hands on the beach today!

Juro,

Sitting here in the midst of the 90th day of rain this year (mostly weekends) in Joisey, your posts got me to thinking...

In the interests of science, and as part of the validationprocess for these new rods, may I humbly suggest that operator variability needs to be studied...in the interests of science, of course.

So, purely in the interest of science...please sign me up! Thes rods sound like a real breakthrough for the surf, and I'd love to try one when you judge that they are ready for more extensive testing.

Until then, please keep us all up to date on developments. Vicarious thrills may be all some of us get for a while yet.

Best regards,

-Doc
__________________
Steve "Doc" Duprey
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 06-21-2003, 03:47 PM
Dble Haul's Avatar
Dble Haul Dble Haul is offline
Fly chucker
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 3,674
Juro- What you, Jay, and others are doing with these rods is great. It will probably take a while for them to gain any hint of popularity with the general striper flyfishers (many fear change), but you're solidifying what legends like Lefty Kreh have always believed.....that longer rods will always outperform one-handers in the right situations.

Good luck with your continuing trials.....and share some pictures if possible and in due time.
__________________
Mark
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 06-21-2003, 04:58 PM
2HandTheSalt 2HandTheSalt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 301
Send a message via Yahoo to 2HandTheSalt
Sounds great Juro.

So what exactly is the length of the mystery rod? 10'6" or 11"?

Ah, the holy grail of two-handers in the surf is surely what to do with all that line! Once you learn to cast the thing, the rest is all about line management. This is the reason why I lean towards the short rods, because beyond 100-120', any additional casting distance you might be able to achieve is theoretical rather than practical, at least for me.

Can one of these rods really be too fast? I didn't think so, but I am willing to learn.

Here's an offer: Show me yours, and I'll show you mine.

Latest prototype, that is.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 06-21-2003, 05:25 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Probably ought to pursue independently for now.

When the rod is ready, I will show everyone - I hope to have them in production as soon as humanly possible. My welfare depends on it!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 06-21-2003, 07:06 PM
rooster's Avatar
rooster rooster is offline
I remember sometimes...,
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NC, NorCal, Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 378
Juro,
I got at 10wt 15' sage spey a couple years ago. I've brought it to the cape several times, but have yet to get any salt water on it. You may have just given me the inspiration to get it wet.
I keep thinking it ought to be the ticket at stage harbor or nauset.
We'll see.
Cheers,
DK
__________________
Rooster
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 06-21-2003, 07:32 PM
Paxton Paxton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Central Mass and Chatham
Posts: 924
I guess we now know who will be casting to the rip on Monomoy, from J Buoy on SB :hehe:
All kidding aside.....best of luck Juro on your new enterprise...ahhh.....me thinks that could be the name of the rod
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:48 PM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
Rooster -

I also own the 10150 Sage, which is a good spey rod and overhead casts but is nothing like these rods. These are not spey rods by any imagination, they are very specialized saltwater shore fishing rods that are well-suited to tide rips, beaches with or without surf, river mouths, etc. They are shorter, faster, the handles are different and they are designed to cast a longer line, throw much heavier weight lines, bigger flies, and ultimately fight bigger fish more easily than the typical single handed rods.

That being said, spey rods are cool for SWFF especially in longshore currents, rivers and inlets, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 06-22-2003, 01:00 AM
tomd's Avatar
tomd tomd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: cape cod, duxbury, and boston harbor
Posts: 834
Send a message via ICQ to tomd
Question length???

how long are the Juro? Tom D
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 06-22-2003, 08:03 AM
JimW JimW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: As long as it's Salty
Posts: 1,795
How long a backcast is required?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 06-22-2003, 08:57 AM
juro's Avatar
juro juro is offline
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 20,593
The rod length is designed to provide long casting advantage of two-handers but short enough to feel like a 'normal' rod when fishing and fighting fish. Final lengths are not determined at this point but the prototypes are very close to meeting the criteria.

Unlike speyrods, they require as much backcast as any single handed rod - they are overhead casting rods. To throw the whole 100' deep sea I needed about 50 feet of room behind, to throw 60 feet I needed about 30 behind so it's approx 2:1 ratio but this will range dramatically with the line being used (eg. shooting heads) so these metrics are not significant.

I did spend some time casting with a high beach berm behind me and confirmed that there is a distinct advantage to being able to elevate the backcast higher. I did hit the sand once or twice in this exagerrated test but as an exception rather than the rule. Sure a 15 footer would get up higher but then you're stuck with all that rod for the retrieve and fish landing.

The biggest advantages thus far are:

- standing knee deep back out of the surf and doubling or tripling the distance of those getting whacked by the waves
- not one single or double haul all day to throw further than a single hander could consistently, profound reduction in effort
- one back cast 99% of the time, if it lacked power I'd do it again
- little or no difference in the sense of the rod's length while strip retrieving the fly, easy strip set on the strike
- better big fish fighting tool than single handers which have to be accomodating to casting with one arm
- ability to throw grain weights you'd only dream about with one arm, thus huge flies for unheard of distances all day long with no fatigue once you learn the stroke

Testing continues...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 06-22-2003, 12:06 PM
kush's Avatar
kush kush is offline
CND The Spey Underground
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,435
Juro,

When I was at the Cape last summer and used the 13'2" Loop in the surf, I found that the cast I used the most was a combination spey/overhead. This is the cast that Jimmy Green first used while designing the first PNW rods.

I used, if you recall the Loop Adapted shooting head (approx 35'), the cast involves a "crappy" switch cast (once the head is out to firing position), when this 40' cast hits the water you then take advantage of the "water load" to lift it into one back cast and launch the head towards Europe! I was consitently firing 120' with little effort.

I'll have to ask Dana what running line he had on that outfit, but I had very few problems in the stripping basket. Though I think that now I would be tempted to try the "Slick shooter".

I hope you get all this wired so that when we get out there next summer you can show us how its supposed to be done!
__________________
Tight lines - tyler.

Still Living Large!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Fly Fishing Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dream pool fcch Classic Atlantic Salmon 2 01-14-2005 09:29 AM
South Beach- Today striblue Stripers and Coastal Gamefish 6 08-14-2003 12:25 PM
I can only dream....... Steelheader69 Pacific Northwest Sea Run Forum 14 02-28-2002 06:48 PM
Dream Flyfishing Al Worldwide Flyfishing Discussion 0 08-05-2001 03:27 PM
Who lives better than us? i'm so outta here Stripers and Coastal Gamefish 9 09-13-2000 01:16 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:21 PM.



Copyright Flyfishingforum.com (All Rights Reserved)