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Jet sleds & fly fishing?

10K views 88 replies 23 participants last post by  Moonlight 
#1 ·
Like to know how people feel about the esculation of jet boats used by fly fisherman on our NW rivers. Don't want to start a war over this issue just some thoughts on this subject.

I'm sure it was the guides who first started using them so they could get thier clients to the runs first but now I'm seeing more sleds with spey rods in the rod holders.

I will admit that I'm a bit bothered by this trend for many reasons. I see this as bit on the greedy side of steelhead fishing when the sleds are used to go back and forth on a river so as to fish the same run multiple times in a day. What happens to those that are coming down river and who would like the opportunity to fish that run also?

Will this esculate into a war of everyone having sleds. If so them we will be back to the same place we were when everyone had drift boats except the river will be a lot louder and a day on the river will be a lot more stressfull.

I'm interested what you all think about this trend and should I get rid of the drift boat and get a helicopter to fly fish the river?
 
#2 ·
OC, Good question I felt the same way about drift boats and rubber rafts over forty years ago,they just kept coming though! I guess about all you can do is breathe deeply and watch out for the wake so you wont get knoced off your feet.
One thing I have noticed is that as seasons get shorter and crowds get bigger fishing seems to escalate into something that is differnt than what most anglers remeber. The rub comes from the fact that all of the sudden most of the anglers are new people who don't even know what you are refering to when you mention the traditionl way of operating on the rivers.
One reason for more boat traffic is the lack of access across private lands. The Game Department decided a long time back that it was easier to purchase launch ramps and parking lots than it was to accquire easements along the many miles of rivers in the State. This has dryed up alot of access for the non boated angler.
Personally I find very little difference between the two different styles of boats. In my perfect world you get what you deserve by hiking into the water you fish and nobody gets to fish with aid of a boat. But alas the world is not perfect and I am not King so boats are where its at, and I am certain that you will see more in the future.
This subject could incite some folks to "Flame" I would hope not it really is a simple matter there are too many people chasing to few fish in very limited areas.
By the way do you need a partner for your heleicopter?
 
#3 ·
Talking rivers and streams here...

IMHO, sleds are all that and more. Just doesn't seem to fit with my image of flyfishing. It's kind of like hunting from a moving truck and unsportsman like; to both the quarry and fellow fishers. I've seen way too many fishermen driven from their run when the fish are put down by sleds powering upriver. Driftboats, rafts, etc., are okay as long as there is no motorized propulsion.

Ban all boats - nah. You know, I've been thinking lately about all the redds that are being trampled by the wading fishers - not too cool either. When the State closes down all but a few streams the pressure on those remaining open becomes extreme. Thankfully my homewaters, the Skagit, is large and not easily waded in many areas. I recall hearing somewhere that the middle reaches of this river was having problems with poor spawning success. This same stretch is also where most of the pressure is focused early in the runs. Coincidence? I don't know. Yeah, considering the alternatives, I can live with driftboats, I guess.

...just a couple pennies worth.
 
#4 ·
I don't see sleds as a problem on the rivers as much as I see the sled operators as the problem. I hitch rides with friends that have sleds and enjoy the experience of being able to move freely about the river. I also drift the river in a pontoon boat and I hike in some times. Tonight I will be on foot except for the pickup truck I use to get to the trail head. I will use a not so well known dirt road to get that far. Maybe we should ban pickups and start using horses again. I would be in favor of that also if it keeps a lot of the non-locals away from my home waters.

Having said all of the above I see a time when motorized boat traffic will be banned or limited in some way on the Skagit. It won't happen because we as fishermen are complaining but, because of folks like the eagle watchers and perhaps other river user like canoeists and rafters. The main reason will be disturbing the eagles and inconsiderate operators disturbing the canoeists and rafters. I would be in favor of some restrictions or even a ban on motorized boat traffic on the Skagit.
 
#5 ·
The question was not about jet boats on the river in general. But why fly fishermen of all people want to use one. We love to tout our pastime in a high and noble way, one that creates quality time for the user. It seems that this sport is becoming one of quantity instead of a quality experience. I guess I'm just getting old and even our sport must evole for better or worse. Moonlight said it well on his feelings about the subject.
Just want to know what those folks who use jet boats to reach thier destinations to fly fish think and if they feel that by doing so is it good for the tradition and what the sport used to be about.
 
#6 · (Edited)
OC,

Good question. As you know, I have a jet-raft and I do feel a little guilty at times as I run around in front and behind drift boats and shore anglers! This is not a simple thing to address. As has already been mentioned, access is a key question. I bought a boat specifically to be able to access the Skagit, not being the priviledged "local" that Kerry is I don't know all the secret trails (nor should I have to).

Why the jet boat? That is easy, logic says mobiliy is better and why would I handicap myself when Farrar and the boys are zipping around? As well, I use my boat on the Bulkley/Morice and the Thompson where drifting requires extra vehicles and sometimes extremely limited access for pull-outs - the jet makes sense.

This said, I do understand the frustration of trying to compete with power boats. I have only run the boat on the Skagit this season (I got it last year but the closure delayed its debut) until now I have been on foot. I got on fine, but the boat is vastly superior, interestingly I caught more fish on foot though that is I think a function of exploring and learning the boat spots.

As a saltwater salmon guide in the Queen Charlottes I also know that too much mobility can also hamper your success - you run all over and miss the bite! I think Dec Hogan does just fine drifting down behind some of us running around in jets.

What is the answer? I don't know, probably common sense and courtesy. OC, as I said to you and Duggan at Larsons - I did feel a little awkward zipping in there after you guys decided not to stop on the Bar. I wasn't happy about the situation, so your raising this question here is a good thing.
 
#7 · (Edited)
OC,

You posted your second question while I was pecking away at my response to the first, this is a different kettle of fish. I would not have a problem with "traditional roots" if all did it that way. What does it mean, silk lines and cat-gut leaders? Single handers only, maybe NO single handers - only double handers (greenheart ones at that)! Would you have caught that beautiful fish Sunday if you had been walking - and not in a high tech drift boat? I know I wouldn't have got to drink that much appreciated Corona (with a slice of lime no less) without the innovations of our boats. I know I love my new high tech Loop Evotec 8-12 ...

You can see where this kind of thing can lead. Once again, I DO see where you are coming from, traditions are important to what we fly fishermen do. However, so are innovations both in technique and in tackle - this includes transportation. It is difficult to have our cake and eat it too.

Again, a good question, we need to voice these concerns from time to time, so at least we are forced to think about what we do and how we do it.
 
#8 ·
Kush,
It was great to meet you last Sunday on the Skagit and have a beer with you and your friend who by the way looks more like Don Cherry than Don does except for the plaid suits. I had no trouble what so ever with you fishing larsons first but I understand your disconfort with using the jet boat for the same reasons I would have. I think you answered why you use one very well and that's exactly what the question was about. Would like more on your thoughts about by having the jet boat is it a quality or a quanity experience for you. By using the sled to you miss all the other things that go with a day on the river like having the time to watch the wild life, rowing a boat through tough water or walking in to your favorite spot enjoying the early morning walk. And by the way how long and how time did you put in to cast a spey line as well as you do.
 
#9 ·
OC, My response to your question regarding how I view my use of boats on the river whether its quality or quantity. This is pretty subjective and given that I fish just about everywhere its hard to give a short answer. I will suffice to say that on the occasion that I do use powered boats when in pursuit of steelheads I always try and temper my usage with some type of restraint. Wether its not fishing anywhere near where someone might walk in to or fishing only with floating flys, do these types of restraint make up for some bad karma on my part? I guess they must in my mind.
Some places I fish have only minimal access as in completely roadless and only air or water access, some times between the rattle snakes and the Brown bears I would perfer to take the fast route over water. Of course crowds are seldom an issue in these few spots so one is not stepping on anybodys toes by using powered boats in these situations.
I guess to answer your question, I can cover up the guilt enough under most cases to still enjoy the fishing expierence while using a jet boat.
Like I said the world is not perfect but if we all treat each other as we would like to be treated it would be close enough for me.
By the way that was a lovely hen you caught the other day, hope you get another before the closeure.
 
#10 ·
OC,

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you even though I like to use a sled for transportation. In reality you can't beat them for getting from one spot to another but, they are annoying as hell when they are flying by you while fishing. I see this only getting worse as time goes on. Certainly going to stay this way as long as there is only one river to fish.

Please excuse my rants about being local. I have never seen the Skagit this crowded before. Used to be you could head up to the river after work and not have to worry about finding a run to your self. Now, even during the week the river is crowded.

KLS
 
#11 ·
Plays well with Others?

I agree, good question!

Do jet-powered craft compromise the "esthetics" of flyfishing?? :confused:

Yes, in my opinion they do!! I much prefer to walk or float in. :)

That being said, I should list a few other things that mess with my flyfishing Fung Shui . . . :rolleyes:

1. Walking or floating a distance to get to a good run only to
have a jetboater beat me to it.

2. Lots of other anglers infesting all the holes I want to fish

3. Getting lowholed in a good run by another fisherperson

I personally fell that, if you're planning to fish the Pugetropolis rivers, you need to be ready to deal with the reality of fishing them (see above). A jetboat helps even the odds when fishing on crowded waters.

Many of the finer "esthetics" of flyfishing are already lost - you're going to deal with (other) jetboats, lowholers, and crowds anyway so it's reduced to determining what I want to get out of my fishing time. For me, it's the opportunity to fish as much quality water as possible. The jetboat's speed and mobility provide this.

If you want a wilderness experience, there are plenty of places to hike in. Head up into the upper Hoh in the park or other remote stretches and you won't have to deal with jetboats, driftboats, or (hardly) any other anglers. I like these excursions best, but they take time and I can't always invest a weekend to really get ~AWAY~. And, as Kush mentioned, there are also those wilderness rivers with minimal launches where the options are a multi-day float, a helicopter, or a jetboat. And Ol' Steelhead Bob explored some pretty wild BC headwaters for steelhead in his jetraft!

Fishing from jetboats are part of a compromise I make to achieve as "quality" a fishing experience as I can find on certain of our more crowded and accessible rivers. Not a perfect solution by any means.

My .02

DS
 
#12 ·
Kerry S,

It's alright to be frustrated about being a local and having your river over crowded. We all understand your feelings and I think you should voice them. I'm not against fly fisherman using sleds but the concern is that we are getting into place where we bypass a lot of what fly fishing or fishing in general is about. By using the sled we skip a lot of the total package of going fly fishing and in the end we get plenty of casting in and hopefully plenty of fish landed and released. Are we moving toward just getting results? Moonlight has good reason up in Alaska to use one I would too but how would the fishing trip be personaly if we took a week vacation walked in used our skill to be safe from bears and fished for the total experience. Are we going too fast and missing a lot in this difficult time where our enviro is stressed to the max where we at work and home are stressed to the max?
 
#13 · (Edited)
OC,

Quality or quantity, hmmm? Again, this too is a tough question for me. Sometimes quality is tied very directly to quantity, othertimes it has nothing to do with it. Even though I have only hooked a few fish, I have enjoyed this spring on the Skagit far more than any I can remember, save the very first one when it was all so brand new. My jet-raft is the reason why. I'm seeing parts of the river I've only heard about, I'm getting into new water and discovering it for myself - this is truely a quality experience for me.

Am I missing the smell of the roses? Maybe, but right now that is not interfering with the quality of my experience. It does concern me that I may be interfering with the quality of someone else's experience though. Possibly after I've "made the aquaintence" of all this new stuff now available to me I will look to smell the roses again.

Back to the quantity as part of quality issue. I am a member of RCPA ("Recovering Competitive Persons Anonymous"). As such I still fall into the need to catch fish! Sometimes lots of fish! I'm usually pretty cool about it, but if for some reason I get into a bit of a drought I can get a little intense (just ask Doublespey or Dana). At times like these maybe I should restrict the use of my jet-raft - as I might not be safe to be around - but that is hard to do!

Anyway, this is obviously complicated stuff - I love it!

OC, thanks for the compliment on the casting. I am largely self-taught, in fact right where we met last Sunday is where I figured out the Spiral roll cast. I'd seen it on Derek Brown's video and thought I'd try it. Now I cannot fish the Lower end of the Mixer without fondly recalling the struggles - talk about where quality in a day comes from! I fish alot , therefore I cast alot. I did get some pointers from Derek Brown at a spey school on the Fraser a few years ago it was very helpful. As well, my primary fishing partner is Dana Sturn - "Mr Spey Instructor", though he is very circumspect about offering advice it is great to have him there if I want to ask for some help in trying to solve a hitch. As Dana would probably say, basically what I do is just chuck it out there!
 
#14 ·
I LOVE IT!!

Kush, you're killin me!! :chuckle:

I'm here trying to get some work done and all I can visualize is you with your Psycho-Biker shades on and your raft adorned in chainmail and spikes!!

I see a post-apocalyptic river video in the making - maybe with a Road Warrior theme.

Steelhead Warrior?? :devil:

TIC,

DS
 
#15 ·
I have no problems with sleds. I just think that some locations are not approtirat for sleds because the atmosphere of certain locations is destroyed by the sound and presence of sleds.

The Skagit and Skykomish are perfect rivers for sleds. The fish are activly moving and a sled going over or near your water doesn't matter because a new fish could move in at any time. However the Deschutes is just the opposite. The fish are holding and sleds spook them yet there are no new fish moving into the run.

The Skagit and the sky are big open rivers and there is already no sence of being in the wilderness. The Deschutes is very much a wildernes atmosphere and I feel that sleds detract form that atmosphere.

Some places sleds are appropriat some others they are not.
 
#16 ·
Rob that is funny I was getting ready to say I don't have a problem with sleds on the Skagit but I have a big problem with sleds on the Sky. The Skagit is a big river and for the most part they can get to the other bank but up on the sky at places like Hershey, eagle's nest, etc there is no place for them to go except right over your water.

I don't like them for a couple of reason. Sleds don't understand what a fly fisherman is trying to do. They gear guys will free drift over and over the same water even if you are in it. You know what I hate the noise. I am on the river to relax and guess what that noise isn't relaxing to me at all. They are just annoying. Now maybe it is just because I have never been in one and have a drift boat.

As far as fly fisherman in them I guess I still get back to the noise portion. I don't have a problem with people beating me to the water. If they beat me to it so be it. I have taken fish behind people and people have taken fish behind me. It happens.

I will say I have a hard time saying that I would want to take away anyone right to use them though. But for the most part not me. I like the pace of fishing and floating that a sled would take away.

JJ
 
#17 · (Edited)
Like snowmobiles and ATVs, jet boats are obnoxious as hell; unless I happen to be on one in which case they are a fun way to get around. :hehe:
I own none of them, which is more a result of very limited funds than a categorical opposition to motorized transportation in the boonies, yet I hate the way they sound.
I used to avoid the jet boat weekends on the lower Deschutes at all costs, but one weekend a few years ago I ended up down there with my mountain bike and found it much less crowded than the previous weekend. I strapped on my headlight at 4:00 a.m. and beat the guides to Wagonblast.
 
#19 ·
What a great topic and the replies are truly enlightening..
Another aspect of "motorized" traffic is the effect of waves on the shore line. I don't know enough about the WA steelie rivers to comment, but this is a long standing debate on the Bow. Waves erode the river bank! If part of our FF culture includes conservation of the environment, including "noise & wave" pollution, would it not stand to reason that this is part of the issue of motorized access?
Is this an issue on your rivers?
I recently bought a new Clacker to replace my older one for river fishing and I also have a "power" fishing boat that I use on big lakes. I often carry my pontoon or float tube when I get out to a larger lake and use the power to move around & deal with the windy conditions and then the pontoon/float tube to fish from. I prefer this approach because I feel more relaxed in them than I do in the 18 foot/100 HP machine.
 
#20 ·
...it's okay for us all to sled your favorite river but NOT mine.

...who care, everybody is doing it already.

...I am a "captain of industry" and my time is limited, so it's okay for me.

...it's today's technology, why not use it? [What about fish traps and dynamite?]


IMNSHO, just so much compost!

The single greatest reason I took up FF in the first place was to get AWAY from such thinking. Sled drivers are closet bass fishermen who can't give up their toys.

Take bow hunting as an example of the apex of the hunting sports and what some have done to assure THEIR quality time. I guess these same types after taking up bow hunting would purchase the newest compound (better penetration, surer kill - okay I'll buy that one). Then comes the pocket infra-red detector to see the quarry through the brush. Radios to communicate to your like minded minions, driving the prey to your lair. Sound detectors and remotely controlled cameras (they are out there, guys) to gain a fix on the trail system being used. Wearable scents to mask the human smell. BAITING. The travesty goes on and on... Crap, just get a job at the slaughter house and forego the need to buy the archery equipment.

Same goes for the techno Flyfisher. I date myself but, there was a time when flyfishing was the epitome of sportsmanship. The pursuit and associated esthetics were far more important than the taking. One fished the smallest of tippets as a means to give the prey a sporting chance (of course with C&R these tables turned, an exhausted fish is a dead fish). Now we have bobbers and jig heads, epoxies and jelly rope, side scanning fish finders and jet sleds.

And how many old flyfishers like myself are being driven to support an outright ban on motorized traffic on these rivers because of the callous few who disregard common courtesy and true sportsmanship.

Ethics, guys. Simple ethics.

...make it a nickel.
 
#21 ·
Heck Steve, I leave you alone for one day and you open up this can of worms. Some peoples kids...

I can't resist loggiing in with a couple thoughts and opinions. First off, good question and some great answers. My initial reaction is to question if this is just another way to categorize fishing. We all do it but as flyfishers, I think we are the worst. We get all uppity about indicator vs. swing or floating line vs. sinktips, etc. What is authentic and traditional. Hell I don't know and I don't really care. It seems we should be trying to make fishing more inclusive rather than more exclusive.

Today was the first day I had been in a jetboat on a westside river. It didn't suck. Were the gains of quickly running up and downriver from hole to hole worth the noise and loss of tranquil float and conversation? Today it was, tomorrow maybe not. But it was nice to just pick up and run up to the next run after a well known fly fishing legend low holed us. (And no I will not say who it was but it was rude.) I guess in general I have no problem with using sleds on the large rivers to get around.

I will agree with Jeff that the Sky is not big enough for the 24' deep vee hulled monsters that some guys are running on it. Smaller sleds or boats like Dennis Dickson's, Kush's or Dan Reiffs, are probably fine. I wish I had one.

Finally, someone said the issue is not jetboats but the people running them. Like many things in our sport, it seems to me to be an issue of education. We are all out there for the same thing and in our own way are competitive to get it. If you are not, my hat is off to you and good luck fishing the bamboo rod and floating line :cool:

Oh, I almost forgot. Kush, you have nothing to feel sorry for about the Larson's incident. Well maybe your language but given the Canuck bashing earlier, OC and I earned it.:hehe:
 
#22 ·
Before This thread makes juro and sinktip nervous that this will turn into one of those jet sled flames I'll say thankyou to all who gave some insight into why you fish the way you do. I know we all are being pushed into new ways to fish because of our enviroment that we fish and the amount of people fishing in it. Was just wondering if by using all the new technologies if we are cutting ourselves short of that good quality that we seek.
this said I'd like to anounce that Sinktip has just bought a sled with 10hp more than our good Canadian friends who do research on th eSkagit have.
Thanks
OC
 
#23 ·
Wow, this is a great topic OC! With exceptionally respectful opinions I might add!. I have never met Sinktip, but my opinion would be quite similar. I am lucky enough to own a number of floatable craft, including pontoon boats, canoes, a 17 wooldridge, and a 22 tolly with a 460 ford and kodiac pump (BTW, i use it for fall kings...not generally flyfishing). IMHO it's not that we use these craft for fly fishing, it's as someone else said it's the manner and respect for the other fisherman in which we use sleds. I, Like Kush just got my wooldridge a year ago, and i can spend a whole day on the water just learning the water and seeing new things on the river that were never available to me before without the sled (kind of like watching beavers, osprey, or a water ousel as your walking into a favorite run) Although it's a different type of enjoyment than flyfishing, it sure is a lot of fun. INMHO, it's which craft we choose on the water we wish to fish. Pontoon boats and drift boats for small water where they are not likely to be offensive, the wooldridge on small to medium sized rivers, and the Tolly only in the lower columbia. I can remmeber very well when i dispized jet sleds, drift boats, etc...until I owned one..I really don't mind following people down through a good run of water, the sled allows me to run upstream after a drift boat or other craft has fished through a run...If every spey nut had to walk into their favorite hole carrying a 15' rod, i suspect the path created would look like a walmart parking lot. Sleds are kind of like fishing buddies...they're all a--holes, except for the ones your fishing with/in today! LOL! BTW, OC it would be a pleasure to take you for a ride anytime, or walk into a favorite run of water...there's a time and place for both....

Great topic!
 
#24 ·
Given a choice, I'd rather fish a sled-less river but on some rivers the increase in sled activity pushes the fish to the gradual sloping side where the fly swings sweeter. The best fishing usually occurs at daybreak w/ fish laying in tight, late morning after the sled traffic pushes everything over to the near side, then in the evening when everyone is heading back to the ramp!

As far as what is and isn't flyfishing, etc - once again there is no point in comparisons, it's as subjective as anything in life. Some people see flyfishing as a tradition, near religion - but that doesn't make it exclusive or inclusive.

In the traditional angler's defense, what's equally "exclusive" to me is to have a flyfishing site that does not provide a place for people to express their passions and convictions for flyfishing no matter how hardcore that might be.

You should always feel free to express flyfishing as a form of religion here. You should also feel free to not have to agree to be welcome.
 
#25 ·
Thanks Juro for the confidence in us to express our thoughts.
Th3e jet boat thing is not a bother to me at all except they are noisy but I can live with that. But I have a question for you, you have been around awhile and have seen things change. What I'm truely concerned about are we missing something in going fishing with all this new tech stuff. I know it's great stuff I have the best rods made in the world and they keep well broke. But a new example of what I'm trying to get across would be when you striper guys are on the Cape and your a few miles apart from each other. One group gets into fish the other group has none around at all. So being good guys the one that have fish call on the cell phone to come on over. That's nice to share an end result but what about the experience of having no fish around and figuring it out on your own why there are no fish in my area. Is the learning experience of figuring things out not a part of fishing and does it not give you some great stuff to think about before the next fishing trip? We seem to be wanting all the rewards of fishing and seem to makeing a learning day something not desired. If this true then we no longer are fishing. tech stuff has made way to easy to fish and this is hurting the total package of fishing.
 
#26 ·
I'm plagued with self-doubt..

I've been thinking about buying a sled for a couple of years now, mainly in order to get at some places that are very difficult to get to without one -ie- Bulkley Canyon, the Skeena.

I currently own a raft, a pontoon boat, a canoe, and an inflatable kayak, which get me to most (but not all) of the places I want to fish. But every year, as I get older, it sometimes seems to be more work than enjoyment to get to some of "my" spots. For instance, bounding into the lower canyon on the thompson, given the state of my knees these days, is pretty much a thing of the past.

I reckon with a sled I'd have a little more energy and a little less back pain at the end of a long fishing day.

The down side is towing, launching, storing. and buying gas for the thing, plus the noise, pollution, and being part of what's turned into a rat race to catch at least "your" share of the fish..

However I don't want to be like those folks who drive me crazy by constantly riding their trail bikes through my campsite...

It's clearly about wanting to catch more fish (than you anyway). I wish I could move beyond that competitive desire into some sort of zen-like state, but it's not that easy, at least for me with steelhead.

Interestingly, I've learned to become much less competitive when it comes to trout fishing.. I'm happy to go out, catch a couple just to prove to myself that I still can, and spend the rest of the day hanging out at the campsite with a book or a beer.

Maybe one day my brain will click over and decide that I've caught enough steelhead and don't have to prove anything to those other anglers when they ask me "how many today?"
 
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