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ZEC AGREEMENTS

9K views 62 replies 14 participants last post by  Gaspe Salmon 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

Now that 2006 is winding down and we consider fishing in 2007, I was wondering if anyone knew the extent of, or the details of the advertised agreements between the local ZEC's and Outfitters.
 
#2 ·
There are mutliple agreements on the Gaspe for the next 4 years. The Zecs are mailing out their draw info as we speak and the pertinent info will be included in with the draw card applications at least as far as Gaspe and Pabos are concerned; I cannot say for sure about Grande River or the Baie of Chaleur Zecs/Wildlife Reserve.

Unfortunately it does not look like the 75-25 rule will be in place for next season but I am extremely confident that it will be there for 2008. There are some other potential changes as well but it is premature to delve into them at this point. As they become more timely I will certainly pass them along.

There is 1 big change in Gaspe for next year (aside from the block of rods for myself) as well as one other potential big change for next year. First, the Pavillion will now be accessible to everyone through a phone draw in November. In the past dates have been reserved ahead of time in the same manner that outfitters set up their calendar. However, because it is a wildlife reserve (and wildlife reserves are intended to give equal opportunity at access to all with priority towards residents) they must now have a draw.

Second, Gaspe is also sending out a survey to its clients asking about opening the season in May (starting on the 25th). If there is enough interest it will take effect next May.

For what it is worth, fishing has been as good as it gets the past week with the rain we have gotten. The York is still up over a foot and the gates nearly came down on both the York and St. Jean. Lots of fresh salmon making their way up the rivers at this time. When the end of the season counts were done there was not much of a difference in the counts from July; there would be now if they were to count again.

Looking for some feedback here from those who fish in Gaspe. Do you think that sector 7 on the Dartmouth should be C&R like sector 12 on the York? I believe this will be put forth next spring at their annual meeting.

Bill Greiner
 
#6 ·
Pierre:

Arrogance is your middle name; I am simply confident that the members of the zec will approve the deal; it is a WIN WIN deal. I believe that the CA of Zec Gaspe supported this negotiated deal unanumously. The people who sit on the board are respected by their fellow local anglers and their support for this deal will carry a lot of weight at the meeting. I would expect that the members will, in turn, support this at their General Assembly. Ask YC what he thinks about the agreement and whether it is a win-win. You will probably be suprised.

If I am wrong there is always a plan B; I am sure you would love to know what that is.

Good luck on the Matapedia; any salmon river is a great river. My 2 cents relates not to a river in and of itself; simply selfish management decisions.

Bill
 
#7 ·
Bill;

Sorry, here we don't have a middle name. The only name I know for me is Pierre Manseau.

Is your plan B is to sell your bussiness to native? If I remember, when we met on a "Table Saumon" , I think this was your plan B..? I might be wrong... but , I think you said " If I don't get these rods, they will get them"

But you know Bill, this is just salmon fishing...


Oh. You should go on the french board, I think Quebec people would like to learn from you...
 
#8 ·
Pierre:

Nice guess but keep trying! Plenty of options on the table; after all I own 1,000 acres and have riparian fishing rights on the best pools of the Malbaie. There are very few places in the world where people can actually own salmon pools and fishing rights. I am thankful that Quebec is one of those few places. There is a lot of value in these holdings. For one, the Nature Conservency of Canada (a great organization) owns land in the estaury of the Malbaie (as do I) and they are very, very interested in my holidngs along the river. If the Malbaie wasn't C&R maybe you would have an interest as well?

This year I had more Quebec anglers than in my previous 3 years combined. None was aware of bickering on french websites. If some people on this or other websites are upset because of negotiated agreements WITHIN the 20% regulation then that is too bad. The zecs can do as they please within the 20%. You yourself felt that way in the past and last year when we had lunch on the Grand Cas you didn't seem to be that concerned with the outfitters getting rods in the 20% as long as there was minimal impact on resident anglers. My rods on the Grande and Pabos are not an issue for you since you never fish there (can't keep big fish there) and they have small numbers of resident anglers compared to their overall client base.

I do support the FQSA despite your arrogance and jealousy and will continue to support them in the future. Your President is a good man and has the ability to see the big picture and does not get caught up in your tirades.

With the 40-50 mm of rain tomorrow I am sure you will have a wonderful time on the Matapedia. Tightlines!

Bill
 
#9 ·
Bill

I have always defended the 20% as a way to finance little rivers. What you mention is right. If you want to use the fact I am on the board of the FQSA, no problem, I can resign right now. I can use my own time for something else than having a perpetual fight. The only reason I am there is my love for salmon fishing. In 2006, I had more than 10 people I initiated (sorry if the words are not good) in salmon fishing. All new fighters for salmon situation.

But since you mention the 20%, you remember we also suggested to have this to be allowed by a draw. I can understand Grande Rivière and Pabos, undersold. But Gaspé?

Now you talk with contain. I can too.

My first post was against the fact you were very bad with people I love. Matapedia people. I know about their realty, you don't.

Now, I will shut it down. But if you want more contain, you will find me.
 
#10 ·
Gentlemen -

These debates have some important matters worthy of all of our consideration in the mutual interest of the salmon.

However these important issues seem to be occluded by name-calling and offensive innuendo.

I would rather not exercise my right to refuse service to anyone so please lighten it up.

Keep in mind that your participation on this forum is a privilege, not a right and I will take the shortest path to end troublemaking as I see fit.

thanks
 
#12 ·
Gentlemen,

The reason I posted the question was an attempt to get details on the agreements in order to evaluate for myself the potential for the ZEC to run a fair public drawing.

A couple thoughts

1) If Bill g has 20 % of the 3 Gaspe rivers limited zones before the drawing, throughout the season, that is fine and it should allow him to run a business. Especially combined with the advertised PABOS and Grande Riviere arrangements.
(there are also 50 rod days allotted for riparian rights)

2) That would mean that we, "the public" (Resident and NR) are now playing the winter drawing for 80 % of the seasons allotted Rods. Actually it is probably 40% during the winter draw. The rest being 48 hours water.

3) In my opinion, that SHOULD mean that the winter drawing will not be overloaded with card entries from Bill G. And I hope the ZEC made this stipulation!

Does anyone know what the ZEC has decided?? How it will be a fair drawing or what the details of the Agreements are?? Even the question What do we have left to play for??

The clock is ticking.
 
#13 · (Edited)
My Thoughts

I think if somebody wishes to enter the draws, it would be suited to have his/her
name and his/her address on the card, No??

Not the name of a participant and the address of his / her representative on the card!!!!!!! :mad:

Asa fisherman, I would have the pleasure to receive a confirmation if I was drawn and satisfied to know that my representative effectively entered my cards. Such as agreed!!

As a business, I demonstrate transparency and prove that there are no fictitious names and addresses..

It would avoid an overload in the draws and would give a better chance to all!




Ann
 
#14 ·
All good points here Quebec Sporting!

The single most important point I am trying to make is..

If you have 20 % allready, then overload the draws (even with real names), then you also enter names on a daily basis for additional rods from the 48 hours draw, in the end you could end up with maybe 30-40 % of all of the fishing on all three rivers in Gaspe throughout the season. A virtual monopoly.

The ZEC should not allow an outfitter that allready has 20% of the rivers [/B]or thier clients [/B] to participate in ANY of the Draws either on November 1st or the 48 hours draws. It simply would not be a fair draw for the rest of us that choose not to use an outfitter and play the draws for a fair "PUBLIC" chance to win and fish limited sectors.

If the ZEC allows the potential for a monopoly by awarding of 20% and allowing participation in the draws by an outfitter and their clients, there is a very low probability that the public wins either the winter draw or the 48-hour draw.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Morning Green Ghost,

I feel, if an Outfitter was given 20% of the waters, that’s fine. But use them!!

Where the ACCESSIBILTY problem develops, is when you see reserved and paid waters, and no one fishing!

Re-sell them. Or put the un-used rods in the 48hr draw. (don't monopolize a sector)

People want to fish, local businesses will also profit and appreciate!!

The Gaspé cannot survive without Tourism!! Become a Hero!



End of discussion for me...

Ann
 
#16 ·
Anne:

If you are suggesting that the cards I send in for my clients (real people who do not whack salmon) do not have THIER names and addresses then you are again misleading people to pick a fight. Grow up.

For the past 2 years the zec has required names and addresses of all participants of the draws to be filled out or a card is rejected; no one gets special treatment-- it is a rule. For all of the time you psent in the zec office snooping and documenting you should know that.

Also, don't give people the false impression that lots of rods go purposely unused. People cancel trips for a variety of reasons including: health, work, missing flights, and other conflicts. There are methods for reselling rods and I can state that I do the best I can to resell rods 48 hours in advance. There are also occasions where the unused rods never get repurchased.

How do you feel about kids buying rods with no intent of them ever fishing (just taking up a space for another angler)? Is that not an injustiuce as well? We have an old saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones....

Best of luck in 2007 on open waters, limited waters, private club waters, or wherever you and your clients fish. All business for the Gaspe is good business.

Bill Greiner
 
#17 ·
Anne ,GG and BG
I'm including the "unused" rods issue as part of a dossier/project that I'm currently working on and hope to present to the Qc. and federal gov't's ,FQSA and ZECs .
Oh and there's an even older expression than "the livin' in glass maisons" proverb
STATUS EST SICIT STALTUS FACIT , or something like that
 
#18 ·
Please, somebody hear what I am saying.

NO WINTER DRAWINGS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTER's PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!.

ALSO NO 48-HOUR DRAW CARDS SHOULD BE ALLOWED FOR FOR ANYONE WHOS NAME APPEARS ON AN OUTFITTERS PRE-RESERVED 20% BLOCK OF RODS!

LET THEM USE THE RODS THEY HAVE BEEN PROVIDED WITH AND THAT IS ALL THE RODS THEY GET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We, the Public , cannot have a chance to win good waters if they allow those who already hold 20 % of the water FOR THE SEASON, to GET MORE WATER FROM THE DRAWING SYSTEM AT ALL , PERIOD!!!!!
 
#19 ·
Chuck:

First, Who said anyone had 20% of the rods? The rule which allows zecs to sell rods outside of the draw system is referred to as THE 20% RULE. I do not believe anyone has said that any zec, except Grande River, has ever sold 20% of their available rods to anyone. RELAX

Second, if you do not like the fact that a business such as mine can aquire rods AND also participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients then I would suggest that you contact the Quebec Government and gripe to them. LOL.

Third, remember that you as a non-resident are privileged to be able to fish in Quebec; it is not a RIGHT. I know that you and perhaps others may have liked the good ole days where there were few people on the rivers. Those days are over. And, in the good ole days, Quebec taxpayers subsidized your fishing by making up revenue shortfalls within the zec system through grants or subsidies to the zecs losing money. There are roughloy 10,000 resident anglers and a couple of thouseand non-resident anglers who fish salmon each year. At the present time the feeling is that the zecs need to be self-sufficient and not rely on Government handouts to keep the system afloat. Salmon fishing is a PRIVILEGE. The zec waters are governmental waters and owned by the people of Quebec. Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority. Once again here it is: first rights belong to First Nations PERIOD! Then the priority goes to non-aboriginal Quebec residents. Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents.

I know you are dying to know what is in the agreement signed with the Zec Gaspe. 418-368-2324 is a good place to start. If they wish to divulge the info at this time it is their right to do so.

In the case of Grande River, they are selling me 20% of their limited rods for the next few years (as they have for the last few). I will continue to be in their draws as well with no restrictions on the number of cards I submit for my clients. Once the 75-25 rule comes into effect (cannot happen soon enough in my opinion) then there will be no point in sending in cards there because only 5% of the rods each day will be available to non-residents (this equate to 1/2 rod per day and it is impossible to buy 1/2 rod).

The other thing you can do is to show up in Gaspe at the annual meeting and vote against everything. This is an option.

So much for a quiet fall...

Bill Greiner
 
#20 · (Edited)
Like it or not do-it-your-selfers are welcomed BUT are at the bottom of the ladder of priority


participate in a democratic process of obtaining rods for my clients

Then come commercial outfitters. Next are guides. Finally, non-residents


my clients (real people who do not whack salmon)


ouf!! :confused:
 
#21 ·
Bill
You can count amongst the out of province "doityourselfers"
One of Boston's senior ER surgeons
one New England pharmacist (sorry he own a pharmacutical company)
Four rather famous fly tyers (amongst others)
one reel maker
one slightly famous golfer
one artist
and one teenager who works for a grocery chain and who spends a substantial part of his earnings on Salmon fishing .
One old gent from France who spends three months each summer (as of two years back) on his favourite Gaspe river.
One of my favourite stories about your "doityourselfers " involves my drooling over a skirack loaded with twohanded rods and a museum collection of 5 Vom Hofes and one modern EXPENSIVE North American that we mere mortals dream about. Got to talking with the occupants of the car and and then -----------
cheers
 
#22 ·
Brian:

I think it is great that folks can come up now and do it on their own, regardless of who they are. I am not sure it will be like that forever but nit is like that for now. Those people have a right to the rivers but in MY OPINION their priority is not the same as the rights of First Nations, Quebec Residents, and Commercial operations that have a presence for 122 days and not just "prime time". Others may have a different view on this.

When I have done my slide presentations across the USin the past, I have always stated at the beginning that Quebec does not currently require the use of outfitters or guides for non-residents. I will no longer be stating this at the slide shows in 2007 as I do not believe it is my responsibility to promote fishing for do it your selfers. Other can do so but the rivers are becoming more and more crowded and it does not make sense to compete against oneself.

Bill Greiner
 
#23 ·
Just I case anyone out there in cyber space does not know. I have been supporting multiple ZECs in Quebec for 27 years. Not only do I support these ZECs with participation in winter drawings (on as many as 10 rivers per year), but also, I come to fish their waters whether or not I (or my family members) actually win the winter drawings. Furthermore, I also fish the water when it is high, low, no fish or on occasion full of fish.

When you speak of “Privilege” I am also privileged to pay 15 % more to fish the same waters.

All I have been saying and I continue to say is the truth. As a statistical and probabilistic fact is … if you put in more drawing cards then you win more water. That is a mathematical certainty. This is the same mathematical certainty that began the saga in the first place some 3 years ago. Why are all the non –residents winning all these drawings??? It is called statistics.

The entire concept of a fair public drawing has been lost. It is now about the money. More names, more money, means more winnings = the plain truth. This has nothing to do with the pecking orders of who has the right to fish there; this has to do with plain and simple mathematics. More cards = More wins!

What I find most interesting about the facts are that Bill continues to try and say that he is in favor of a 75% / 25 % Resident vs. non-resident split in the draw system. This seems to be despite the fact that the likely average in his camp is 80% non – residents!

I sincerely hope that the ZEC is paying close attention to the posts that have been stated on this board. SUPPOSEDLY they already mailed out the Arrangements that have been made and will DIVULGE to the public exactly what rods have been awarded already and therefore what rods are left for the rest of us to Try and win against the Mathematical and certain statistical Odds if overloading of the drawings is allowed to continue.

I have nothing that I should contact the ZEC for or the Quebec Government for that matter- I think the management of the water has been extremely well done. That is until the overloading of the system became about money and statistics. Instead of an individual attempting to have a fair shot at going on vacation in a beautiful environment that the ZEC System was designed to Promote. It’s NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A ZONE FOR EXPLOITATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will reiterate – If water has been provided in advance, before the draw, in order that they can maintain a business and provide employment, then the details must be disclosed to the public both resident and non-residents. That way, the public (many of which are ZEC members) knows in advance what rods are available to them PRIOR TO the winter drawings.
 
#24 ·
Chuck:

You bring up a couple of valid points:

First, I was under the impression that the zecs (Gaspe and Pabos) would send out information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors) in with the draw card applications. And, that in this mailing there would also be the info relating to the general meeting. The date of my post in response to yours was in Sept when I was still in Gaspe and that is what I understood at that time.

I have spoken with folks in Quebec who have gotten their draw info and neither is contained in with the cards; the only thing different is the survey relative to May fishing. I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw. I believe that this info needs to be divulged but it is not my responsibility to do so.

To answer one of your questions, some people involved with the zec do read these posts, that you can be assured of. That said I think the best way to communicate with them is via email or phone and not on a bulletin board (they will not respond on a BB).

Next, as stated many times before I am 100% in favor of 75-25. It does not matter that my clients are mostly non-residents. My business will get some rods outside of the draw system through agreements. I will also be participating in the draws with all 3 zecs I do business with and certainly understand that there will be a limit to the number of rods available to any non resident angler (client of an outfitter, guide, or a do it your selfer). No problem here with that; the majority of the rods left (after the ones which go to the First Nations (I think those are the ones you mean when you refer to riparian rods) should go to residents. The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses. As you said you come up even if you do not win in the draws. You are not alone. I am sure you and others do so because the fishing is decent and is not expensive since you can do it without hiring any commercial establishment.

Here is an interesting proposition for the draws: 1 card per angler per river at a cost of $10. Like 75-25, I am 100% behind this as well. How do you feel about 75%-25%? How do you feel about 1 card for $10?

Lastly, I would ask you to define what you mean by overloading draws. The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boat.

And, to be sure, this year one could not fish if the winner did not show up. In days past the extra rod could be used; now it cannot be and is of NO value to anyone. Therefore, it is absurd to think that anyone's name will be entered into a draw who will not fish or does not intend to fish. The rods are of no use to any commercial business otherwise.

So now the issue is whether or not a business has the right to submit draw cards for its clients in the names of its clients; OR whether an individual can submit draw cards and then go through a business. The simple answer is yes; it is a democratic system. If you disagree with this you can attempt to change it. You can do as I suggested; call the zecs and the Government. All the complaining on the internet will change nothing. If you are sucessful in having things go as you wish then great; if not then so be it.

Lastly, as to water costs I would think that non-residents should pay 50-100% more per rod. That is reasonable considering that it is a privilege to fish there and to do so without the need for an outfitter or guide.

Bill Greiner
 
#25 ·
The rest are for non residents and there is a priority (you may not like it) for commercial businesses.
This is false information!!


The rules for the last 2 draws are that the clients name and address must be on the Nov draw cards or they were rejected. Letters of notification of winning were mailed to those individuals to real addresses and hordes were NOT returned as undeliverable with addresses such as North Pole, Fantasy Island, and Love Boatand.
This is false information!!



I then spoke with the zec and I believe they will be informing people prior to the selection process but I cannot say prior to the date of the draw
"information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors")


Are you telling us, that the Gaspé Zec will surprise us only after the pre-season draw (after collecting our money) that some spaces will not be available??
That whether we like it or not, it's a done deal??




Ann Smith
 
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