Fly Fishing Forum banner

Somthing to think on!

4K views 43 replies 20 participants last post by  Smcdermott 
#1 ·
While manning the booth for the Rhoddy crew at the RISAA show this weekend I heard this tale from two differant people. A study was conducted on lip gripping bass, to see if it had any effect on them. The story goes that some scientist went out and caught ten bass and grabbed them by the bottom lip while unhooking then the fish were placed in a holding tank and in 10 days all the fish were dead. The test was run again and got the same results. Then 10 more fish were caught and carefully cradeled while being unhooked and put in the tank and after ten days all were doing fine.
I don`t know how scientific this study was or if it was even done but it does give rise to some unsettleing questions. Is the long standing and generally accepted way of landing bass hurting them more than we could imagine?
By the way the RISAA show at the Convention Center was one of the best I`ve been to in a long time. A hearty congratulations and lots of thanks to the volunteers who made it such a huge success.
Slinger
 
#4 ·
If the "lip-gripping" is the problem, I have two questions:
1. Were the fish held in any sort of plane other than completely vertical, and if so, by approximately how much (and what were the weights of the fish, as well)?
2. If gripping them by the lip was the real culprit, what does that mean for those using Boga grips?
 
#5 ·
Yes... I think we should try and get that study and WHO these scientist are. I would certainly want to know about that issue... but at the same time..I would also need to know who sponsored the tests and how the test were actually conducted. But more importantly who conducted them and by who's prompting... It would make a big difference to me if it were done by a legitimate scientific study or some PETA type group in disquise.... just being suspicious. I know i have heard that with big fish it might be a problem. I would also like to know if the size of the fish was discussed as well.
 
#7 ·
striblue said:
Yes...It would make a big difference to me if it were done by a legitimate scientific study or some PETA type group in disquise.... just being suspicious.
Valid point John.

Florida Fish & Wildlife have limited informatton on it, I'm having a hard time tracking it down. I might have dreamed it.
 
#10 ·
Sorry for being light on the details - trying to get some work done.;)

On closer inspection, the writer, who has a PHD in fish physiology, conducted an "informal" study of published photos...

Based on this, he opined that the joint of the jaws is not meant to support all the weight of the fish, especially when you figure it has grown up in a weightless environment.

It also is supposed to cause organ damage holding the fish vertically, tearing mesentaries....

He recommends you hold cradle it in a horizontal position.

RE: why no dead fish seen floating, I saw quite a few last year, more on the inside, plus with the huge numbers of dogfish we have I'm sure the carcasses don't last long.

Roop
 
#11 ·
Tom Meade Outdoor Editor of the Providence Sunday Journal had it in his Sunday column March 7. It told about 20 stripers lifted by the lower jaw, they were kept in a pen, all 20 died. I don't remember how long it took, but the test was repeated, with the same results. A Boga Grip was mentioned as no good either. I also read somewhere where it is no good putting your hands on their bodies, as it removes the mucus, leaving them open for infection. I guess the best way is use barbless hooks, and try releasing without touching them.
 
#12 ·
What are we missing?

It seems to me that something is missing in this study. How is that anglers each year catch tagged fish etc... I know for a fact that I have caught the same fish twice a few weeks apart in a small estuary enviornment and I definitely lifted it by the jaw. I am sure some fish die due to miss handling but I am having a hard time buying that all fish died due to the lip grip.

Sean
 
#13 ·
artb said:
Tom Meade Outdoor Editor of the Providence Sunday Journal had it in his Sunday column March 7. It told about 20 stripers lifted by the lower jaw, they were kept in a pen, all 20 died. I don't remember how long it took, but the test was repeated, with the same results. A Boga Grip was mentioned as no good either. I also read somewhere where it is no good putting your hands on their bodies, as it removes the mucus, leaving them open for infection. I guess the best way is use barbless hooks, and try releasing without touching them.
I smell PETA somewhere in this. I would have to say that it pays to treat the fish gently and carefully rather than carelessly, however I have a hard time believing that lipping them is fatal. Besides, I work in the aquarium industry and consult with multi-million dollar operations and I'd love to hear about the specific water parameters in these pens. Sounds like a lot of BS.
 
#14 ·
I've also read a study that stated that 10 fly fisherman who used bait scent on their flies were found dead in 10 days as well?

Studies are only as strong as the parameters that are used to test them and must be always compared to a control group to have any validity. granted lipping big fish might be detrimental, but I agree to state that all fish died in 2 subsequent studies smells a little fishy to me too. Were they starving these fish, but feeding the belly cradle fish sand eel delight? The article needs to be reviewed.
 
#16 ·
Lipping fish

Read through the post quickly, but if not mentioned there is an article in this months "Saltwater Magazine" about this subject.
Article in anti lip grippers, but does suggest using the grip to control fish and highly suggest craddling as you would with a trout.

Capt Keith
 
#17 ·
flyfisha1: peta?!?.....

that's a pretty weak tangent. Unless you have anything more than a kneejerk hunch, perhaps a separate peta bashing thread would make sense.
To the question at hand: I read the article, and it wasn't that scientific, but made good points in a common sense kind of way. It would not surprise me if lifting fish straight out of the water by their jaws might not be good for them. I doubt that scientists lip fish in aquariums and studies (flyfisha1, what do you see in the field?).
We have all seen gross abuse of caught fish by ignorant anglers. Heck, befor we knew better, most of us were probably pretty unkind as well. I welcome studies that suggest that we reconsider the way we fish.
I am always trying to think of ways to do things better(like all of us), and from a boat, I think plastic mesh cradle would be a better way to handle a fish (that for what ever reason needs handling). I have seen walleye fishermen use them on tv. I will try it this season.
 
#18 ·
I don't buy it.I have seen countless fish lipped released without any ill effects. So according to this study we should all carry cradle nets. Hogwash. However, to pick up a fish by the gills which I've seen done by so called professional guides is another matter. Just my .02
FishHawk;)
 
#20 ·
Those experienced guides are not picking the fish up by the gills, but the gill plate(actually the notch where it atatches to the head). Lots of muscle and tissue there. Still might not be good for them.
I don't see why the possibility of dislocating and tearing muscles in the fish's jaw is so far fetched. flyfisha1, as a biologist, is it possible or even likely?
The widespread practice of catch and release is still relatively new, so that we are all still learning makes sense. When people kick fish into the water, they are probably thinking,"Go on little girl, and come back when you're bigger." and then turn to their novice buddy and say, "A striper is too important a resource to catch only once."
No one is saying that you have to buy a cradle or even use one. I think that the purpose of the "study" (if it even could be called that) was to point out another vulnerable area on the fish.
We know not to squeeze the fish, drop the fish, hold it out of the water for too long, put pressure on the organs, put our hands in the gills (the rakers or the plates?), and so on. Now maybe lipping the fish could be harmful. If we are releasinfg the fish, it makes sense to MINIMIZE the trama. Not ELIMINATE the trama. If it's legal, killing the fish and eating it is an option too. Inbetween doesn't make sense, but that is the reality of catch and release. If given the choice, I'm sure the fish would opt for the pricked lip, the sore jaw and organs a takes it's chances with the sharks and crabs(over the priest).
 
#21 ·
Eddie makes some very good points here. I think it's just as he says, another reason to be more aware of the impact we may have on fish that we release.

As a scientist, I can't take these types of studies seriously without knowing the parameters and variables. Ideally, the only variable should be the handling, and all other factors should be as close to equal as possible. That being said, I hope that the study covered such questions as:

1. Temperature and quality of water where fish were caught vs. temperature and quality of water in the holding pens.

2. Area of the mouth that fish were hooked. Jaw hooking is far different than tongue hooking, which often results in bleeding. If some fish were bleeding and some weren't, regardless of handling group, then the study isn't very rugged.

3. Size of the fish studied. If they weren't all of the same general size class, then this could possibly introduce other variables as well.

4. Frequency of feeding once in the holding pens. If they weren't fed, then this would likely contribute to a decline in health regardless of handling. And if they weren't all fed on the same schedule with the same amounts of food, regardless of handling group, this would also introduce some potential variability in overall health.

These are just some points off the top of my head. There are likely several others, so let's keep in mind that there may very likely be third and fourth variables at work here. Lip handling of bass may not necessarily kill them, but it might be a contributing factor when combined with other stressors.

I will reserve complete judgement until I have the opportunity to thoroughly read the study itself.
 
#22 ·
Well, Eddie, I don't think that wondering if PETA is involved in a "study" where fish that were lipped all died as a supposed consequence of such after being kept in captivity for a period of time afterwards is such a far-flung notion. But regardless...

Mark is right: there are far too many variables that we are unaware of at the present time. In aquatics (both private and public), fish are removed from systems at various times and invariably lose some of their protective slime coat; few of them would be removed by the lip, with the exceptions being in those outdoor warehouse-type stores that have massive displays of North American gamefish. These fish are promptly returned to their aquatic system and survive quite well. So the key here is that the fish are being returned to a chemically-stable environment. I would be willing to bet money that the fish kept in pens were placed into water with a far different water chemistry than the one they were accustomed to, which would have stressed them and in these cases fish rarely eat. Additionally, was there any cover, i.e. objects to hide behind, in the system? If not, it's again possible that the fish were stressed. Fish that don't eat usually die, right? There is no word on how the fish died, if they died in succession, and if so what were the water parameters? Was pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, salinity, temperature always what it should have been? Without answers to these questions, as well as those that Mark posed, such a "study" is nothing more conclusive than making a "knee-jerk statement".

Of course it's possible to damage the tissue around the jaw; Nature and evolution didn't design these jaws for the express purpose of the fish being grasped by it and lifted out of its medium. It would be sensible to theorize that the bigger the fish, the greater the potential for such damage to occur. Damaging the gills would be a far more effective way of bringing on death, since the fish wouldn't be able to breathe as efficiently and would therefore lose an edge to competitors when it comes to feeding, the length of time spent swimming at higher speeds would decrease, and the fish may not even be able to make transitions between marine and brackish or freshwater systems due to decreased ability to move ions across the gill membranes.

The real point: account for these variables, make observations, then draw some unbiased conclusions; this is what science is.
 
#23 ·
it would seem that the fear of peta has led to quite a bit of paranoia. They've won.

In the absences of science, we only have common sense to guide us. No one has said that this was a perfect scientific study. It would seem that when enviormental resources are at question, there is NO science that is good for everyone. I can't help but to wonder why there is so much resistance here to any notion that maybe lipping fish out of the water can be damaging to the fish. It would seem that this "study"(or whatever it was) is pro-catch and release/pro fishing ie. "let's do it better".The idea that this is some plot, cooked up by the forces of evil is absurd. Especially with out a shred of evidence......I know, I know..."In the absence of proof, we only have common sense to guide us"..touche;)
 
#24 ·
Slinger said:
... A study was conducted on lip gripping bass, to see if it had any effect on them. The story goes that some scientist went out and caught ten bass and grabbed them by the bottom lip while unhooking then the fish were placed in a holding tank and in 10 days all the fish were dead. The test was run again and got the same results. Then 10 more fish were caught and carefully cradeled while being unhooked and put in the tank and after ten days all were doing fine...
I think that you mistook my statement regarding PETA; honestly, it was meant as a joke. It's practically impossible to account for every variable when it comes to biological studies, and we have no information regarding the guidelines of this particular study to go by. My intention wasn't to suggest that lipping the fish is good for them, so allow me to apologize if that's the way it came across; rather, I think that it's a better alternative to physically grabbing them elsewhere. I'm all for finding a way to catch and release with the least possible impact to the fish; we all are. I would simply hate for a study such as this one to become fuel for the fire against fishing conducted by radical animal rights activists, and I know you would agree with that.
 
#26 ·
That's the way I typically handle every fish that can be lipped; I would imagine that it has the lowest impact on the fish and its internal organs, as well as the jaw. If the fish isn't a potential record-breaker, why lift it all the way out?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top