Peter, Dick, et. al. -
Thanks for starting this dialog, it gives me an opportunity to share some findings. Unfortunately we could not hook up in person over the weekend this time but I hope we can hook up soon.
Interestingly I see two perspectives in this overall thread: one from an experienced spey casters perspective (yours) and the other from folks having no background or need for spey casting (e.g. Dick's). I have thoughts on both views based on experiences I've had, hopefully they will be of value.
peter-s-c said:
This was the first time out with the Atlantis + Airflo WF-12-I and I found that when I got it right, it went very well. When I didn't . . .
The problem involved the 40' head of the line. The Atlantis needed the full head out of the guides to get a decent load. If I cast with the rear taper in my hands, the cast would max out about 90'. If I let the whole head out, then I could shoot the full 105' line. The problem was, I'm short, I'm waist deep in water, I'm stripping in most of the head, so managing a long length of line got problematic.
By
managing I assume you meant
"lifting, rolling and aerializing the entire 40ft head between casts while wading and using a big fly". I concluded that this is what you mean because you say it casts well with the head out, and I assume we are not talking about spare line in the basket, etc.
Or perhaps you mean "getting the fat head back out again". Bigger line sizes mean bigger diameters and that means "harder to get the line back out". Conversely, using even a 45 ft high-density head rolls right out with just a flick due to diameter and grains of hi-density lines.
In either case... the shorter the head the easier the set-up, which accounts for the extreme popularity of the Teeny-style lines among striper dudes (single-handers), most notably the Cortland QD and Rio Deep Sea lines which have
26-28ft heads. A 30 or 35ft head is much easier to set-up between casts with the 11fter, although the longer heads have distance
casting advantages.
The shorter heads will hold a loop form for about 80 feet then the energy wave passes through the leader and dissipates into thin air before the cast is completed, causing the tension in the line to expire, thus the head will flail about like a hose without a sprinkler.
Case in point: Thousands of striper anglers fish the Cortland 325 QD on their 9ft 9wt rods. Watch as they cast them beautifully with little effort for 70-90ft. Then a pod of fish comes by and they need to reach. Once they break the 100ft mark the energy needed to throw that cast causes the loop to run out before it completes and the line lands in a dumped curve.
Two-handed rods make it easy to exceed that limit - so although short lines set up easier between casts they often can't hold the loop form for the length of the casts possible with the tool.
We need a line that can (a) set up comfortably between casts (b) load the rod effectively and (c) not lose it's loop form over serious distances.
In comparison, Spey lines and rods comfortably balance what they can "manage" or what I would call "set-up" against what they can cast comfortably. Anything extra comes from shooting. They are longer and have a different flex profile to accomodate this.
Overhead rods (i.e. single handers and new two-handers) can hold in the air more than they can comfortably setup. For instance if we tried putting the 40ft head on a single hander capable of handling that many grains in the air, it would be even harder to "manage" but would cast the line just fine.
Thus, IMHO the caster must adopt different techniques for setting up between casts, or else use spey casting gear on the beach which introduces a whole new set of problems due to unnecessary length, slower actions, stripping / hooking and landing fish, etc.
Again, roll out is really easy with a sinking head portion due to density and grains, in fact you can effortlessly roll cast out an entire 45ft high density head from the leader knot to the back taper once you get into the high density ranges (DI-7 Airflo for instance).
Technique:
1) Regardless of head length, find the length of line that manages (sets up between casts) very comfortably. This should be at the back taper or within the belly depending on length/grains, or else the line might be too light.
It's possible in fact probable that if you stand a comfortable distance from the waves you can actually cast better and make up for the difference over wading out. Note that the "comfortable length of line" will vary with the depth you wade and the height of the angler just as it does with spey casting or single hand casting.
2) getting the head out:
I start with a sideways sweep "side-slip" like a spey cast but lower, letting the line stick while I slip line out through my fingers on the way back. By rising to a high 1 o'clock position, I now have slid quite a length of line out of the guides. This should get at least 10-15 feet out, even more in current or waves. Then I squeeze and roll the line forward, shooting the balance to the back taper laying the line straight and ready to lift into the backcast. If the first "sideslip" got some line out, the second shooting roll (switch) is more than adequate to get a 30, 35, even 45 ft head out there. You might even have to hold back a little. Better yet, start the whole sequence with a poke/wiggle forward before coming back to slipslide, then a shoot roll.
3) other hints:
With a clear intermediate line you don't need more than a 4-6ft leader. With a sinking line, you don't need more than a 4-6ft leader if you can get head-on angles, blind or sighted. So you don't need a spey leader for stripers unless you're fishing a bright floating line. These are rumbling linebackers of the brine, not the king of fish although I completely love and admire them so. They are awesome but not line shy in the surf or rips where this rod is designed to be used, only on the flats does leader stealth matter. So choke up and let the grains do the work.
If there is current, like a tidal inlet, I use a snake roll-like motion to setup the forward roll to get the head out for the lift into the backcast. A circle spey also pulls up a huge amount of sunk line in rip currents.
Use the side slip and the shooting roll to get the head out, straight, and ready for the lift into the backcast.
Bring your favorite spey rod out on the beach and cast them side by side with the Atlantis for a day. Casting is only one part of the equation! Besides superior set-up with the spey, I'd be curious to hear the other
fishing characteristics you notice thru the day between the two rods. I've fished the spey action rods on the beach for years and could give you a long list. People who spend time out there with the spey action rods often concur with my findings as well - too long, too flexible, to hard to strip, too hard to set and land fish. The Atlantis is only about 8 inches longer from grip to tip than the standard 9ft'er, making it a good fishing tool as well as a more powerful casting tool.
If I was using light flies, no biggy, but using clousers, the old paranoia would creep in about the fly dropping, then I'd rush things and you all know where that goes . . . downhill.
I was really concerned about using this line on a beach with a good slope where I could only get into the water perhaps 15' to 30'. With a 2/0 hook + 10' leader + 40' of head + leaning the rod back on the drift, I'm putting a lot of line over the beach, ready to snag some unwary person out for a stroll. I had my head constantly on a swivel on the lookout. Didn't make for relaxed fishing.
It's great that you are concerned about strollers, considerate anglers will keep legislators from shutting down beach access and the general public friendly about anglers on public beaches, etc. Good point.
If a 40ft head is a threat just imagine what a single handed overhead cast (30-40ft head aerialized to 60-70ft false casts) would do to the poor passersby, or worse yet a spey line cast overhead (short heads 54ft, long heads over 100ft).
Most beaches I fish I stand about up to my shins in the surfline, which is almost dry between waves. By standing back, clearing the beach is much easier and with the right lines I don't feel like I am missing on on too much by standing back because I am still casting past the single-handed anglers taking waves in the face.
I found the slippery running line was hard to hang on to with wet hands so I gave up on overhead false casting. If I continue with this line, I'd have to whip on some thread and Aquaseal it to give me some finger grips. I'd either rollcast or spey cast (if there was a current) to set up the overhead cast. It ended up pretty efficient, especially with a current, for the spey cast would shoot out the full head in one cast then I'd pick it up and blast it all out in one go. Way better than the multiple double hauls of the single hander guys. I had brought other rods but they never left their tubes. The Atlantis is the way to go for me. It really is a first class fishing tool. I tied up some of my Yak 9 pike flies in saltwater colours -- they're humungous -- and the Atlantis would toss them like a size 14 Hendrickson. I also tossed a big black bunny bug at night with Atlantis showing the same indifference.
I'm glad you found the rod effective out there. I hope you hook a 40plus incher so you can feel the other benefit of having a more powerful rod out there
For slipping of line in the hands, I have come up with a grip style that really helps. Grasp the handle and make a middle finger with the rod in hand. Place the line under the middle finger, then close it. This puts the line against three fingers and dramatically reduces slip. Also, hold the line with the bottom hand for a safety catch. The line can be slipped right through the middle finger grip by lightening and squeezing, then shot by lifting the finger off the handle as the loop flies forward.
However, I think I'd like a shorter, heavier head so I'm looking at an Airflo 13 wt. Tarpon intermediate clear line with a 34' head that has most of the weight in the front 25'. I probably would get the full load on the Atlantis with the end of the rear taper in my top hand. That'll solve a lot of problems with deep wading and narrow beaches plus it'll pickup quicker and cleaner. I just have to check the temperature range on that line.
Sounds like a good line to try, please keep us posted.
There are new lines coming that I am hoping will simplify this process. I am very optimistic that a current project by a major line maker will be what we are looking for.
Final note:
Deep wading and stripping to the leader butt has not been something I've had to do with the Atlantis because I use it primarily for surf and big rips. In surf, I stand back out of the messy stuff and fire high and far. This means I leave more line out between casts as I stand back further. It's much more comfortable, drier and safer than trying for the extra distance in the waves, taking them in the face.
In rips I use more swing so the line is left out longer between casts, even allowing spey techniques to set up. I particularly like the snake and or circle to set things up.
On the flats, I could go either way. If the fish are jammin' me it's nicer to have the Speytracker (9' 8" 8wt) which can cast either way, or my trusty single hander. But if the fish are running the edge of the channels at high tide or a vicious cross-wind is blowing on my favorite flat I find I have a major advantage on the flats with an Atlantis while sight fishing.