Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs - Fly Fishing Forum
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:00 PM
Earle Fletcher Earle Fletcher is offline
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Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs

I understand starting in 2007, the Quebec ZEC's preseason draws for salmon fishing in their controlled sectors will be awarded on a 75% Quebec resident and a 25% rest of the world basis. Quebec outfitters will also be granted a certain amount of rods in these controlled sectors too. For us nonresidents, it doesn't make these preseason draws too attractive. I wonder if the 48 hour draws will be awarded on the same basis? Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool.
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:31 PM
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Earle
You've got it wrong !
I believe you ARE aware from where and how the 75/25% thing got started and why it did . If not ,dig into the archives here and SAOL. The outfitter thing ONLY applies to a certain very few sectors ,and I believe, certain days on three rivers,The York ,Bonaventure and Petite Cascapedia. IMHO (and quite a few others ) THERE AIN'T EXTRA ROOM on the e(a?)ffected sectors on either the York or the Bonnie. As for the Petite, the outfitter that will have the right there ,could easily double his clientele from 2 to 4 on the sector without any problem.
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earle Fletcher
Maybe the Matane had it right after all------make it a "free for all" for every pool.
Free for all good idea? I think not.
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Old 01-11-2006, 07:28 AM
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I would like to understand this issue a little clearer...

first of all it sounds like only "controlled sectors" are affected; what percentage of the good water in Gaspe does this represent? Or maybe the question is what percentage of each river's sector allocation is subject to 75% resident draws?

Secondly, how does 'free for all' apply to this favored draw for the subset of water? Do you refer to the fact that residents kill their salmon?

thanks in advance
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:36 AM
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A Book By It's Cover

O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

I would welcome a 25/75 split as a non-resident. If you look at this year's draws you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

The York, Dartmouth and St. Jean are somewhat higher, not much, because some very good business people have promoted the economy of their hometown. This has put a greater ratio of ballots in the draw from outsiders. I hope all the good people of Gaspe understand this.

I do not think this would ever happen because it would mean that just about all the outsiders who apply would be accepted. The fact is that anglers from Quebec support the draws in far greater numbers. I have seen stranger things happen in Quebec and would not be surprised at the result.

As far as the Outfitters are concerned, they deserve the rights to fish good water all the time. If you think about it, the government of Quebec has sold them something called a licence. Should they then have to fight for the right sell what is already public. They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. The total number of rods per day for all the Salmon outtfiters in Quebec on all the rivers in Quebec total about 30 with most sharing a guide and boat. I don't see the problem here.

I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.
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Old 01-11-2006, 11:02 AM
Earle Fletcher Earle Fletcher is offline
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To answer a couple of the questions that have be raised: The Matane River ZEC does not have a preseason draw. You pay your daily rod fee and you can fish any pool under their jurisdiction. On the best pools, you may have to share (rotation) with 20 other fishermen, but that's the way they do it. They also lose out on the money the preseason draws generate for the local ZEC's. The preseason draws are for the best pools/sectors for a limited number of rods, and if you are lucky, you are in for a quality Atlantic Salmon fishing experience for a very reasonalble price. The basis for the 75/25 rumor is an article, "Winds of Change" on page 72 of the latest Atlantic Salmon Journal and Bruce Patterson's post on his "Go Gaspe" website stating this change was going into effect next year.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:26 PM
Green Ghost Green Ghost is offline
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The 75 % to 25% split is only proposed for next year and not accepted yet by the ZECs.

The Grande Cascapedia used to use a 90% resident and 10 % NR split (this may still be the practice) This certainly was not a fair deal for non-residents.

The ZEC Gaspe has always defended their right to hold a fair public drawing non-residents and residents equally.

Here is my Opinion and how we got to where we are and where we may be going.

In 2004, Outfitters overloaded the drawing to the tune of some 4,000 cards in the winter draw out of around 7,000 total cards. Since non- residents are a majority of those using an outfitter, there was a greater than 50 % chance that a non-resident won a winter reservation.

Residents complained about the results. Too Many Non-resident winners. Add to this that the same outfitter purchased 20 % of the rods throughout the season on some other rivers and a portion of those in ZEC Gaspe, The Result - far too many Non resident winners.

In 2005, the ZEC changed the rules somewhat for the winter reservation system by forcing the actual winners (by name) to fish the days they had won and not there partners while they might be somewhere else fishing. Thereby all rods must be fished and "selective" zone fishing and overloading of the winter drawing with "nameless" non-resident winners was reduced but probably not eliminated.

This year the outfitters were awarded a small percentage of the winter reservations?? Not really, they were awarded extra rods on certain sectors of one river throughout the season during specific periods. Were these rods awarded because the outfitter was unwilling to enter the drawing with no gaurantess on whom would fish and when?? No not really, The outfitter was awarded rods because the outfitter has a right to have a business and provides some local jobs for running the camp (guides, cooks, etc). The govenment minister made that decision and forced the ZEC Gaspe to add the rods despite their argument that they should be able to manage their river as they always have. Result - More non-residents in certain zones on a rotational basis.

I have heard rumors that ther is a proposal that all non-residents will need to use an outfitter in the future. Nobody wants that either - especially the do-it-yourself non-residnets that have been supporting the ZEC for 25 years +/- and that have learned how to play the game and where to be and when. Like ME

I have two recommendations for consideration:

1) Allow the outfitter to have a percentage of the river reservations throughout the season without participation in the winter drawing. That means completely remove all of the outfitters clients from the winter reservation. ( This will automatically eliminate a lot of non-residents) This also will improve greatly the chances that a RESIDENT wins the winter reservations. This will also increase the chances that a non-resident "do it yourself" (non-outfitter) fisherman has to win.

2) Keep the Zec public drawing just that - a fair and honest drawing that gives equal chance to the public, non-resdient and resident anglers equally. !! (you know us, we are the minority, the little guy, the underdog).

Should the ZEC adopt a policy that discriminates against non-residents by endorsing the 75% to 25% split; it is clear that they also choose to forfeit the extra revenues: 15% surcharge on purchased water for a non-resident, the necessary travel expenditures to the community for Hotels, Gasoline, Groceries, Flies, Beer, TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that the non resident has to pay.

The outfitter wants a business, give it to them, just do not make the remainder of the participants suffer.
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  #8  
Old 01-11-2006, 03:50 PM
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Salar33
WRONG on the results !!
The Patapedia is ONLY open to Qc. residents for sector 3 and is 50/50 with NB residents for the canoe run !
The Causap ??
WOW !!!!I WISH IT WAS 0% non resident !!! Your comment here is ,indeed ,quite humerous (AND false)
The Petite I am TOTALLY uninterested in until a few things change there !
AS for yor Outfitter comments .I would agree IF the outfitter IS a Qc. resident AND the money STAYS in Gaspe ,or at least the province !!
Nothing else equates to "supporting the economy" An influx of money is desperately needed in the region .
Pardon my math here, but I just cannot figure out how a (as quoted below ) SMALL increase in #'s in a FEW sectors would continue to provide QUALITY fishing These #'s were determined in the past at a certain number to provide QUALITY fishing and cannot continue, with the INCREASED fishing pressure continue to provide that quality. Don't get me wrong.I'm definately NOT anti outfitter .I use one for 5 to 9 days each year. THAT outfitter 2 years back publicized their fishing to the extent that this year fishing on their waters were ruined due to pressure, and if it continues for another 2 years their rugular clientele will not be going back !
I too pay dearly the taxes ! support the economy and support the rivers EVERY DAY of the year
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salar 33
O.K. Sports fans. Another Quebec Salmon issue to talk about.

you will find results something like this:

Glenn Emma 5% non-resident
Patapedia 0% non-resident
Causapscal 0% non-resident
Petite Cascapedia 5% non-resident

They pay taxes, support the economy and support the river every day of the season. I love Quebec since my first trip to the Matapedia in 1980 and will visit for the rest of my life. I just wish these continuous controversies would stop.

C.R.O.
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Old 01-11-2006, 05:20 PM
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Salar 33 Salar 33 is offline
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Dear Brian,

The numbers came from the CGRMP web site for Glenn Emma, Casaupscal and Patapedia. The Pat is open for non residents as stated by the Corporation. Below is a Causap & Pat price structure from the Zec. It is not listed as New Brunswick Resident. So please note that I think you have your sectors mixed. According to CGRMP sector 3 is open to non residents. Has been for as long as I can remember.

www.cgrmp.com if you would like to check.

DATE SECTOR RESIDENT NON-RESIDENT MODALITIES

1 37,50 $ n/a #2
2 90,75 $ n/a #3
3 113,00 $ 153,00 $ #3
Guest 34,00 $

You seem to have taken my comments in a negitive way. I was in no way suggesting that Quebec should be taking action to take something away or make it more difficult for local people. Other than this I don't understand the cut of your reply. I have nothing in my heart but the desire for the people of Quebec to be prosporous.


C.R.O.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2006, 10:15 AM
Green Ghost Green Ghost is offline
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Quebec's New ZEC Preseason Draw Specs

The topic now seems to be a discussion on the Patapedia.

I intend to re-iterate a theme from several posts on the original topic.

Outfitters overloading the winter draw the last few years has reduced the chances of the public winning for BOTH residents and non-residents.

If the ZEC will eliminate the outfitters from participation in the winter drawing process altogether, the chance for everyone will be increased.

If the 75/25% rule is put in place and intended to bias the winter reservations for Quebec residents, then the fee structure for non-residents should be normalized.

Why should non-residents enter the drawing with a less than equal chance of winning and more importantly, why should non-residents pay 1.5 times more to fish the water if they do win????

Non-residents will simply realize that their money is not well spent, LESS CHANCE TO WIN, PAYING MORE MONEY IF THEY WIN, END RESULT- FAR LESS VALUE than that of the current rules.

The non-residents that have history with the Zecs and are repeat customers are Highly unlikely to triple what their usual trip costs and revert to the use of an outfitter to gain access to reserved sectors.

The Zecs and the region will in the end reduce the revenues gained by the participation from Non-residents.

That in turn will have to cause an INCREASE in THE FEES for each Rod For each river for residents in order for the ZEC to operate, hire guardians and maintain their operations.

The ZEC's will have to choose-

An equal and fair drawing for the public for both non-residents and residents that Excludes outfitters and their clients.

OR

An equal payment structure for the rods throughout the system in order to keep the non- residents revenues coming into Quebec (and the local communities) instead of forcing them to go elsewhere in pursuit of Salar.
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Old 01-16-2006, 11:36 AM
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Green Ghost,

I agree with you in principal, but not in effect. Whatever ZEC charges non-residents will be paid. Good salmon fishing is too scarce for, IMHO, an extra $30-a-day or so to discourage significant numbers of non-resident anglers.

CK
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Old 01-16-2006, 02:42 PM
Earle Fletcher Earle Fletcher is offline
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I'll make one last comment on this thread. I hope I haven't caused too many hard feelings by starting it. I've fished the Gaspe rivers since 1970, and they have provided me with some of the best Atlantic Salmon fishing experiences of my life. I think the creation of the ZEC's by the Quebec Government was a good move to put the local people in charge of their rivers. I believe the ZEC in Gaspe, Quebec is especially well managed by very cordial people that have always been generous to the nonresident. The residents of Gaspe are very friendy and helpful. It is a great place to spend a fishing holiday.

My fishing buddy and I have been able to build a quality salmon fishing trip to Gaspe, Quebec around 2 or 4 days of fishing in prime sectors we picked up in the preseason draw. The in-between times have been spent fishing the unlimited sectors. We always entered the 48-hour draws, but never had any luck. It's because their preseason draw has always treated residents and non residents equally, we have been able to do this. With the draw slanted 3 to 1 against us, we will be lucky to get 2 days at the end of August. My favorite, the St.-Jean River, is only available through the preseason and 48-hour draws. I'm not willing to travel to Gaspe, Quebec to fish for a week on the unlimited sectors in the Dartmouth and York rivers. I would just as soon fish the unlimited zone on the Matane, Madeleine and Matapedia, as they are closer to where I live. Nonresidents have had a good deal for a long time in Gaspe, and I just hate to lose it.
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Old 01-16-2006, 04:09 PM
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Earle
The 75/25 rule was/is proposed ONLY for a prime time period which is ,I believe 15/06 to 15/07. So we would be all equal for outside of this PROPOSAL.
Hey !!you and I started within one year of each other !
You mentioned quality fishing based around 2 or 4 days in prime sectors.We both know that You can give an absolute MINIMUM of casting lessons to ANYONE and put 'em on say Spuin and IF the fish haven't been spooked they'll easily raise a fish.In the case of my 14year old son it just happened to be a 27lb female !
Now take any Flyfisherman with a minimum of situation awareness and put him/her on most reserved sectors and they should nail a fish (Offie ,Spuin, Whitehouse ! That being said ,there are a few sectors where a guide/outfitter might be requiredWhere it DOES get interesting and where a guide/ outfitter is DEFINATELY needed on one's first visit is on public waters.A good knowledge base is definately required here. Also NOTHING really equates fishing with a good guide who will share his/her love of Salmon fishing. I've used 5 guides in the past and the two that REALLY stand out where the canoes were used . Another case where a guide would be needed would be to help a disabled fisherman who otherwisewouldn't beon the water.
BTW Green Ghost EXCELLENT post
Cheers
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Old 01-16-2006, 08:09 PM
Muckle Salmon Muckle Salmon is offline
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Unhappy It would be a terrible shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earle Fletcher
I think the creation of the ZEC's by the Quebec Government was a good move to put the local people in charge of their rivers. I believe the ZEC in Gaspe, Quebec is especially well managed by very cordial people that have always been generous to the nonresident. The residents of Gaspe are very friendy and helpful. It is a great place to spend a fishing holiday.

I just hate to lose it.
Earle, you have expressed the sentiment of many of us who have been fortunate enough to enjoy the spectacular fishing of the rivers of the Gaspe'. Allthough only recently new to the Gaspe' (late 90's) it has become the much anticipated start to our Salmon fishing year. I have found that the people at the ZEC in Gaspe' have allways gone out of there way to be extremely helpful, especially to someone new to fishing in Quebec. On my first trip to the Gaspe' I will allways be thankful to Ann Smith for taking the time from her lunch hour to point out some productive water to us newcomers. When in the office I feel that the personnel share in the enjoyment of our successes and honestly have the best interest of the journeyman angler at heart. I see this in their opposition to the situation with regard to the extra rods allocated to outfitters this season and yet having this put upon them from what I believe is the exertion of political influence.
I just hope this all works out in the end as I would hate to loose all the Gaspe' has to offer me.

Ramsay
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Old 01-20-2006, 11:34 AM
Salar36 Salar36 is offline
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If I understand well, non-resident are afraid to loose what residents lost to the profit of non-resident since couple years...
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