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ZEC AGREEMENTS

9K views 62 replies 14 participants last post by  Gaspe Salmon 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

Now that 2006 is winding down and we consider fishing in 2007, I was wondering if anyone knew the extent of, or the details of the advertised agreements between the local ZEC's and Outfitters.
 
#27 ·
Gosh, I'd really like to chime in with an opinion or what I knew or didn't know, or what I knew I didn't know, which is a lot, but I don't have enough information here.

Does anyone know if the ZEC publicly states earnings?
What does their balance sheet look like?
Where does the money go or what is it spent on?
How much draw money comes from outside Quebec?
Is it in the 75/25 ratio?
Of the Quebec residents who go into the draw win and do those who win actually pick up their passes and fish?

Forgive all the Q&A but I work for a large Telco and we need to know these things. How much does it cost, where are the costs, what is spent where...and this from a "technical" guy. Knowledge is power and without it you have nothing to base decisions on.

Referencing David's other thread, this is about the salmon and the resource. Do we know that the ZEC is using some of that money to actually help the resource or is it squandered in some way.

It is a privilige to fish there and I find my happiness in the public water. Perhaps I'm missing something in the draws but I'd rather know where my money is going before adding to their funding.

-Chris

PS. Y'all need to drink more wine.
 
#28 ·
Hello folks,

Ummm... which Dave are you talking about? And what BS are you refering to? Simply curious for now.

If you are refering to me, I would like you to state my full name.

Very soon I will be responding to many of your questions, comments, accusations, thoughts and rants.

I have been quietly sitting by the edge of the pool studying my fly box and I have almost decided which fly to tie on. I can guarantee you all that it is a killer fly!

Guys, Gals, everyone, PLEASE sit back and do like Wilson says, take a few sips of wine and chill out. You guys are killing yourselves with speculation. I can guarantee that it is not as bad as many of you are making it out to be.

As a former and new simple guide, I can tell you that I too am watching very closely what is happening. So far, I have heard so many BS stories and have seen people panicking over hearsay (I have no idea if I spelled that correctly), anyway... like I said, too many of you are too quick to take the fly that is being offered. Stop taking! Bill stop casting! Just kidding all of you. But really, things are not going to change that dramatically and if they do in the future, it will be to the advantage of Quebec anglers. That much I am sure of.

Like I said, I will be delivering my own take on things, BASED ON FACTS, very soon. For whatever it is worth.

Best to all of you,

David

Salar-1 said:
Ann
"this isfalse information " :cool: Is this part of the BS that Dave mentions in another thread

HIGH FIVE EVERYONE !!!!
GREEN GHOST check your PM around noon:smokin:
cheers
 
#29 ·
Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers
 
#30 ·
Chris
If you become a member of the ZEC that you fish on , you should recieve a statement from them showing where and how money is spent.Becoming a member doesn't really do much for you if you're not residing in the immediate area except it can reduce the daily fees somewhat. Even if you're just fishing a day or two becoming a member does support the ZEC. Probably the only thing that won't be mentioned is the amount OR percentage of outta province money goes into the draw . Now about "Squandering in some way" Negative ! ,techguy ,they aren't because ther just isn't a lot of it to squander.the folk working in the river offies whether they be ZEC or a "society" are the for the great majority HARD AND honest workers. Talk to Family members of people that work in ZECs and find out how stressed some ZEC president's are .
I'm sure that the Gaspe ZEC pres. could get a few more days fishing in, if he didn't have to respond to all the whining phone calls. The Bonnie has sent their letters out reference the draw and this river has done an ,IMHO, a fantastic job of re-aligning the sectors and providing in great detail just where you and I stand if one wants to put in for the draw. I'll bet you Dave's, sorry, David's killer fly that the Bonnie's pres .is getting vilified over the revised sectors.
Now to answer your question on Qc, residents and "those who win actually pick up their passes" I can only speak for myself and my fishing partner of some 30 + years. WE didn't go one year 'cause I got myself into a "killer car" accident . a year and half of physio and operations later I was able to get back on the rivers
My feeshing partner ,well, he has a worse story to tell
Cheers
 
#31 ·
BASED ON FACTS

Morning Dave,

Just wanted to make clear, that I have done my homework.
The issue is here in Gaspé.

Sorry, but I get carried away seeing mis-leading information given to friends, clients and maybe future anglers of the Gaspé Penninsula.

First, I was under the impression that the zecs (Gaspe and Pabos) would send out information regarding the agreement (ie number of rods, dates, and sectors) in with the draw card applications
The Pabos Zec again confirmed to me by phone yesterday that no deal, no agreement, there is nothing on paper for the moment, signed with any Outfitter concerning secured rods for 2007.

The Pabos river cottages are actually on my Outfitter’s license.



So, lets wait and see what happens before selling rods that are not secured yet!


Happy to read you had a great Summer!!

Best Regards,

Ann
 
#32 ·
Salar-1, thanks I forgot about that, I often don't read those in as much detail as I should and I've only been thinking about the money for the past year or so. The reason I made that quantum leap to asking where the money is spent (other than the 3 beer buzz) is I just got to experience my dream this past year by living in the Pacific Northwest and it was a total bust.

While David Bishop was getting back to his roots I was finding out that the PNW wasn't what I thought it was going to be (for me at least). In addition to other issues I encountered fisheries have experienced a lot of habitat degredation and the fisheries managers seem only concerned with creating more smolts to prop up fisheries with declining runs of wild fish. In essence, using the river as a giant hatchery rearing station. I've heard some silly numbers thrown (billions) around the Columbia River valley and all they really have are declining runs of wild fish, increased smolt production, and more habitat encroachment. Additionally, nobody is really watching over the resource near as I could tell.

This year on a drive over to Gaspe I saw a clear cut up around Murdochville that was clearly in the York watershed. Couple that with the comfy ZEC office and shiney new salmon cleaning station out front and there are mixed messages. If you want to manage a kill fishery that's worth fighting over then the resource has to be healthy and whacking some prime forest in the watershed may not be the righteous path. Same goes with the Matapedia.

My question really stems from that experience. I have no doubt that they are all hard workers, but I'll look into those reports a bit more closely. I know we don't do the smolt thing, but I'm always concerned about the habitat any time I see a new cut or gravel pit up there.

As an aside, Bill Bakke at the Native Fish Society does some incredible work out West with regards to providing actionable things that anglers can do to express concern over their resource. The newsletter he provides is incredible; biologist reports, new laws, dam proposals, and funding, they cover the gamut to try and show what is happening out there. I honestly don't know where they get half of it. They were one of the shining lights I discovered in the PNW.

www.nativefishsociety.org

-Chris

PS. More wine, less whine!!!!
 
#33 ·
Chris
If you're ever out in the PNW again I could fwd some contacts to ya. You'll have to be fly fishing and a 2 handed rod would help breaking the ice . How does EXCELLENT (at least this past summer) Steelhead fishing WITHIN 50 minutes of downtown of a large metropolis sound ?
Regarding your observations on the drive up to Gaspe.Try flying over it and looking down at the devastation , Look carefully at the ridgelines .They SHOULD have the occasional tree showing up here and there towering over other trees not the" cropped right to the inch clearcutting" that's almost hidden from view.
You can see all the individual trees showing up over the forest floor.
Cheers
 
#35 ·
Thanks for the offer. I lived out there for 8 months starting last December and moved back to Maryland at the end of July. To be honest, I fished hard for 40+ days on several rivers and it wasn't all it cracked up to be; one Skagit River fish that was barely a "Gaspe Grilse". I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I didn't see a lot of fish, the river managers that actually catch fish at the hatchery and re-release them downstream to run upriver once again, jet boat drivers that'll think nothing of swamping you, all to find meth-addicts hanging around your car when you get back up the trail (if you even have a car by then). If I want to hook a bunch of hatchery Chambers Creek Steelhead I can head up to the GL and make that happen and be with people I know I can trust.

I'd seen enough come summer. The kicker was getting back to Gaspe to see the people and places I truly love took a red-eye + puddle jumper + more driving + 2k JUST TO GET THERE. Had I gone out west when I was 25 I may have stayed and lived the Steelhead bum lifestyle. The fisheries were different back then (I believe) but I have serious concerns about what is actually going on there. Now that I've been Gaspe-ified it'll be hard for me to put that much distance in between again. I'm happy learning to fly fish the ocean and taking my Steelhead trips when I can get them. I just don't want to have to look at what is going on every day.

To hopefully end this thread, you folks really have no idea what you have in Gaspe (Matapedia on East). It's beautiful country, awesome people, and an incredible resource. To me it is second to none and has really become my bolthole and a place where I can go and become "Chris" again after a long year in the lowlands. The reason I'm so adamant about protecting the resources is from what I've known and recently seen. As you all move forward in your lives, career and otherwise, keep that in mind that Gaspe has to be preserved because those beauties that lurk in her depths cannot be replaced.

-Chris
 
#36 ·
Chris,

Very well put. I returned to the Gaspe after 25 years of fishing elsewhere. Yes, I had great fishing in Russia and Iceland. I also fish much saltwater here at home. But there is no place like home, and that is what the Gaspe feels like to me as I learned to fish salmon starting in 1970 on the Matane. And nothing rivals the Gaspe's beautiful rivers and its remote river valleys. Nothing rivals the folks living there. I was quite pleased that after 25 years, the places I loved were more or less the same. You cannot say the same for most places.

I can understand the passion of many people on this board fighting for their beliefs. Hopefully harmony will prevail, but first and foremost the salmon must live on.

Howie

P.S. I also got the chance a few years ago to venture into the Skagit area when my daughter went to school in Bellingham I fished the Sauk river, which flows into the Skagit. I hooked and landed a bright 15lb Steelie on my first day, on the first pool I fished which was accessable from a logging trail. Had also caught a nice dolly varden. Second day I hooked another Steelie and dropped it and had 2 dollys. That was my big Steelhead experience. Beautiful place those cascades, but I stayed away from the Skagit as I didn't like the looks of the river. The Sauk was much nicer and kinder to me.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Chris
FISH CLEANING station ? What fish cleaning station?? Unless you're talking about that alter that was kindly built for us Druids to perform our Summer Solstice festifities ? My suspicions however arose when I GPS'd through the centreline only to find that it lined up directly in a easterly direction with another religion that I can't mention in a public venue! Rather forward thinking on the part of the ZEC office I thought !! Also just look carefully at the stainless steel .The design you see there is an ancient Druid religious inscription.Loosely translated it reads "p--- off unwholely ones " At least that's what my Celt dictionary says. All Religious persuations ,however ,ARE invited to pray at this alter, even the C&R evangelists.However the purists amongst them might be dismayed at the occasional sacrificial offering at the alter of a salmon or two. Pressure from the C&R fundamentalists HAS reduced the reduced the required 7 sacrificial offering to a couple or even one a year, becaudse when you DO come down to it fishing is a blood sport. Although the C&R Evangelical Church tried to set up a pulpit at the alter, they were refused, However they ARE most welcome I understand at the Golden Arches Church just across the river. The C&R fundamentalists have questioned the rather solid construction of this alter .Well the ZEC office did this for a reason. Try holding a Druid Winter Solstice ceremony in a winter Gaspe storm with a freezing wind blowing off the cold Atlantic. Come to think of it,I even remember one or two of the GL guys drinking some "Mead" at the alter !!
So there you are !A fish cleaning station it ain't
Cheers
 
#39 ·
I geuss to me it's not so funny to kill hundreds of large MSW salmon on the great Bonaventure then wonder what's up with salmon runs. I'm not from Canada but fish in your country extensively, and have been to Gaspe 3 times. Keep on whacking salmon and you can be like the US with no fishing!!! I go to Kola for multiple large Atlantics and I release them, not on any alter. I'm no C&R purist, I like to eat fish, but if you have a limited resource, do'nt be an ass about it, but hey, it's your resource, do to it what we did in the US and join me in Russia.

Tight Lines,

Jim Y
 
#40 ·
Jim

Regarding the Bonnie.The zec office has re-sectorized the river in a very bold and courageous move. Analyse it carefully ,see what's been done and THEN make a comment about C&R. Oh and yes ,trust me I have already been crucified for my opinion in support of this decision. It was an equitable decision.Believe me the alternative(s) could have been a LOT worse.
oh and speaking of (my) ass I will never fly over Russia. My ass is just too precious . However You're very lucky to have the financial and personal freedom that allows you to go to the Kola and support a country and regime that is so kind to its journalists,armed service personnel,and travelling public .
Cheers
 
#42 ·
Jim
You're right I'm "not know what I are talking about Kola Salmon fishing"
Let's see
.Fishing log SR '06
5 days on York during C&R period
2 days on Bonnie (early ) one fish bonked 6 0f 7 tags left
6 days on Matapedia all fish returned to river still got dem 6 tags left
1 day on Metis didn't fish but shecked out the river. GORGEOUS !!!! and some mighty fine people met !
return to Matapedia one Grilse returned to river .Damn !!! Still got them 6 tags left.
So what are we talking about ???? the fact that I PERSONALLY kept ONE fish this year ? I'll publically stand by that decision and believe you me it was a hard one that I agonised over during the 11 minutes of the fight and the five witnesses will attest to that fact ! It was probably the LAST non Grilse Atlantic that I'll ever kill .
Now that we've cleared (?) that up .We'll get back to the thread subject.
Since you've brought up the Bonnie .Read again the material on the re-sectorising and LOOK BETWEEN THE LINES and SEE WHAT'S THERE If you are ,as I suspect, ignorant of the river layout.
While we're on the thread subject
Bill
I've checked with Mdme Lise Laverite in Quebec Cite and she was unable to find under --
La Loi de Gestion de la Peche
plande gestion
1983 C. 39 a 62
62
63
64
--any allusion to the "pecking " order that you mentioned in that doityurselfers from outside la belle paye de Quebec are last and that outfriteres were where again? right after Qc. residents somewhere ?
Now then here's the fundamental truth the loi (law ) states that the especes animales (animal species) and stock reporoducteur (reproduction stock ) come first. Now
a recolt permissable pour chaque espece -----
means a permissable cull /taking of each species is allowed
cheers
PS :I'm off to return home and go to bed
 
#43 ·
OK,

First let me say.. I have more than 50 hours of work put in this week so this late post is on "My time"

I got my letter from Gaspe, It says that a meeting will be held during the week of October 9th to discuss the situation on outfitter rods (that would be this week). IT also states these discussions are about the Lower St Jean and York but doesn't mention the Dartmouth. Fine

It goes On to say that the results of the meeting will be posted on the website On October 2nd - My bet is that they missed a digit and it should be October 12 OR the 20th. That is plenty of tiem to submit electronic cards in the draw once we evaluate what has been added.

Perhaps Bill would like to enlighten us on the actual deal, weather or not it is in place for real and what we can expect to see when they post it on the web site. Since he is the recipient, He has no reason not to tell us.

He does indeed have a right to run a business and does provided needed jobs as I am sure you are all aware.
 
#44 ·
Green Ghost:

Not goin' there. There are some super spies in Gaspe who can spill the bans if they choose but I am respecting the right of the zec to publish things. If you did not call them it is too late; everyone is in the woods moose hunting for the next 10 days.

Jim Y; right on the money.

I will say this from my perspective. Many of us here in the US fight as passionately as we do for C&R not because we "know better". We have screwed things up here pretty good and though we hope for miracles (ie Connecticut River) we have seen lots of money and effort yield little in return. Our greatest hope now is Maine and that will take time. We have dammed the rivers, destroyed spawning habitats, celar cut, generated pollutants, etc. It is too late in most cases. All we have left is what is North of us and though the waters are generally not "ours", we do care about what will happen in the future. As I have said before, all that we can do as anglers is put them back. We would love to tighten up logging restrictions, reduce the number of seals, mergansers, commorants, figure out what is happening at sea, etc but we cannot. The passion form many (including myself) is to ensure that the rivers will be healthy in the future and that mistakes of the past (many made here in the US) will not repeat themselves.

Bill Greiner
 
#45 ·
Bill
I totally agree with your last paragraph ( An Internet first,SR/BS agreeing with BG )
May we hold you to that statement in the future??:devil:
Green Ghost
Before I leave the office here and fly outta town for some C%R Moose hunting.Would ya like me to post what's been done on the "Entente" so far ??
Not to worry ,send in yur cards for da draw.:cool: and let's hope the (as Bill mentioned) "the mistakes of the past will not repeat themselves"
Cheers
 
#46 ·
Brian:

I think you may have read more into what I wrote than what I was talking about.

Mistakes of the past that I am referring to have to do with clear cutting, damming rivers, pollution, and destroying spawning habitat. Things that we have don in the US to ruin our salmon rivers. Some of that is being done in Canada (you bring up clear cutting and that is definately an issue on some rivers). There are dams on North Shore rivers but thankfully none on the Gaspe rivers. The St. John in NB is a shadow of what it was historically because of dams and habitat degradation.

If you have a copy of the entente or have details you are certainly free to do as you please with them. I will not be confirming or denying anything until Zec Gaspe decides to publish its contents.

Bill
 
#49 ·
What appears on the web site is the same that appeard in my letter I received except now it says the results of the special meeting would be put on the web site as of October 15th. Today is already October 19th and I saw nothing new on the web site. Can you enlighten us would be participants? What are the changes?:confused:
 
#51 ·
Hi Ann!

I know you do your homework... I did not mean to offend anyone, as a matter of fact, I am not sure what you are refering to. All I am saying is that things are not always as they seem, or, as they appear to be when we write things on the net. Now that the agreement in principal is online, everyone can see what the stakes are. IMHO there is not much that is being taken away from anyone, as I see it, about 55-60% of the waters that have tentatively negotiated are on the ST-JEAN and not in the prime sectors of the York. THEN AGAIN, I am NOT THE expert on those rivers, sure I know them, but would never pretend to know as much as you, Bill and others about what sort of effect this will have on access to the rivers and certain beats.

My simple point that I would like to make is the following. If we want the salmon reasource to be just that, a REASOURCE for OUR REGION and OUR WORKERS, we need to use it intelligently. In my world, there would be room for RESIDENTS within a 75/25 framework, some water offered to outfitters, guides with businesses, having a set clientele, native rods, and public draw access. If you look at it from what the reality is and has been, outfitters (which I am no longer) have businesses, just like guide operations (who are also very vital to employment for our area) and need to have some access to waters so that they can continue to attract guests, which in turn will continue to provide jobs to our area.

The sticking point is two-fold, first, the illusion that has been created is that outfitters are trying to take over. This is simply foolishnes. If everyone would just look at what attempts have been made to create a fair system so that OUR REGION could continue to exist, i.e. jobs, then I think most people would understand a bit more. Ann, you must be aware of all of the layoffs in the forestry industry here. Now that we have lost hundreds of jobs what other resource do we have to survive on? You live off of fishing, as do your employees, my old employees, Glenn's, Bill's and others in the industry. Should all of US come second and third to anglers who come during the prime time only, who kill the resource, who come only when the fishing is good, or, from time to time? IMHO the answer is NO. If people like you, Bill, Glenn, and others are willing to invest THEIR money and their lives along with THEIR employees, it is their responsibility to fight for a place, albeit small compared to the GRAND scheme of things, in order to operate.

I think that most non-residents should consider themselves lucky to be able to come to this area and fish on their own, in N.B there is mandatory guiding and outfitters. Residents have lots of rivers to fish on throughout the Gaspesie and lower N. Shore including the N. Shore. I can understand that some may feel as if special deals are being made, however, I am SURE that the vast majority, not just the vocal minority, is in favour OF SOME SORT, that we properly use our reasource for the GOOD of our economy in parrell with the good of our recreation time. After all, for most anglers it is a sport, not a means of putting bread on the table.

My REAL POINT in all of this is simple. We must all stop fighting about who will manage the reasource. WE neen to collectively put our heads together, look at the FACTS, and come up with a solution to how to CONSERVE the SALMON. If we do not, we will no longer be fighting about managing empty rivers. Unfortunately, there are people that only see black and white. Salmon are Silver, somewhere in between, maybe we would do well to consider them FIRST, whilst we try to figure out who has the RIGHT to fish for them.

Again, let me make myself perfectly clear about MY POSITION, and I too have done a lot of homework and have sat at many meetings about this issue. People have to stop trying to CONTROL, this goes for the outfitters and the FGRSQ both. The disinformation, or rather, the lack of concrete information on what this reasource means to our area and our local economy has been somehow lost in this debate. It is a simple fact of life that salmon are a reasource and it is high time that we recognize this and get on with fairly alloting part of it so that we can insure our own futures as guides, cooks, shoreboys, drivers, booking agents, outfitters, etc... THERE IS PLENTY of water to fish and lots of salmon to fish over. However, when you get a poor year like last year, there are no anglers. So why is everyone bitching about accessibility when there are thousands of days available to fish but no anglers fishing??? Answer that question and you get a gold star!

Ann, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of your area and your passion for the sport. You are truly a good steward and mouthpiece for this area and for the salmon. I find it quite unfortunate that this debate has divided some of us who, after all, are all working for the same thing. Fair accessibility to our reasource. The word FAIR will always have different meanings to different groups and individuals. That is a simple fact of life.

I can tell you that there is simply too much disinformation as to what is really at stake here and it is very sad that things have gone this way. I got out because I was finding myself spending too much time defending certain points and not enough time defending the salmon. Today, my number 1 priority is to talk salmon fishing and conservation. That is all that really counts. Like I said, a couple more poor years of fishing and there will be no problem for anglers to get on the rivers, who will want to fish over rocks? It is high time that everyone put a bit of water in their wine and settle this once and for all. If not, non-residents and residents from away will simply give up on us and we will all be out of jobs.

Ann, I wish you the best, as always and hope to hear from you sometime in the near future.

Screaming reel and frowning rod to you,

Davd Bishop

Guide
 
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