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2004 springers

8K views 45 replies 12 participants last post by  buntinbee 
#1 ·
I wonder if any anglers out there can tell me if this 2004 Salmon season has got off to a very good start?or is it just normal.
I have been hearing of fish being caught off most rivers,Dee,Spey Tay and Tweed also some off the northern rivers have had some good days.
I hear the middle Tweed has fished rather well,along with the middle Dee,are there many coming from higher up? Aboyne and above,what about the Spey in the middle reaches,most people I speak to think its looking brighter this early on.
Does anyone out there have any information on the recapture rates of released fish?or has anyone ever caught a Salmon that has already been caught by rod and line.
I beleive it is commonplace in Russian angling!!
 
#2 ·
I cannot answer for any of the other rivers but the Spey is well up on last year.
James Butler, Speyboard Chairman said last week

>>Meanwhile, the total catch is 130, with 90% released. For the same
>>period last year the catch was about 50.
>>
Most beats are returning the fish as per the board rules but there are exceptions. The Aberlour Association have killed the first 2 fish they caught. Kineromy are also killing a lot of fish. 7 that I know of. An old fisherman killed a fish at Tulcan D against the rules and the gillies wishes. He had irritated me a lunch time by wittering on what a load of rubbish catch and release is.

released fish can be caught again see, http://www.asf.ca/release/speyapr2003.html

The Catch and Release Tagging Project concluded in 2002 with 386 spring salmon (Feb.-May) and 473 summer salmon and grilse (June-Sept.) tagged and released. Recaptures of spring salmon varied, from 16% in 2000, to 7% in 2001 and 11% in 2002, with an average recapture rate of 10%.

Only two summer salmon were recaptured (0.4%). Recapture rates are highest for February fish, with 30% of fish caught again. However, recapture rates decline as the season progresses, with only 3% of June fish caught a second time. These figures may well reflect the actual exploitation rates of fish entering the river at different times of the year. When analysed in more detail it is evident that among spring salmon, fish caught and released in February-March can be recaptured until May,and fish caught in April-May are vulnerable until July.

Many spring fish can also be recaptured in September when the spawning season approaches. These findings confirm that spring salmon are particularly vulnerable to capture by anglers. Released fish were recaptured in every month except August, and therefore require measures to protect them beyond the spring period. These results underpin the SFB's Salmon Conservation Policy for 2003, which aims to protect spring salmon throuthout the season.


I once caught a fish which I carefully unhooked and was holding in the water till it got its breath back when I suddenlt realised it still had a fly in its mouth. It obviously had broken someone else, it must have had a fly in each side of its mouth.
 
#3 ·
Hi W. G.

I am pleased to hear that the Spey catches are up on last years catch as I beleive last Spring was pretty good as well before the dreaded drought arrived in early May!!. The 90% catch and release rate is really good for a river of its size,I take it the other 10% at Kinnermony and association were all bleeding badly!!,although I understand that the 1st fish off the Aberlour association goes to the local hospital.what is the policy at Kinnermony? is it anything goes or is it that the catches are that good that the beat has had so many fish that the fish killed have all been second fish!!
Its nice to hear that Tulchan D beat has had fish as they have had a lean few years up there,I take it Robert wont be welcoming his guest back with open arms!!The old school attitudes must change,this is acceptable if it is a youngsters 1st fish (ghillies discretion applied).
I am still off the opinion that the re capture rate of spring fish adds to the figures and it is a pity that the tagging scheme is still not being used.but who cares as long as there are fish in the river to re capture anglers will return!!:)
 
#4 ·
Re: Hi W. G.

lummels said:
The 90% catch and release rate is really good for a river of its size,I take it the other 10% at Kinnermony and association were all bleeding badly!!,although I understand that the 1st fish off the Aberlour association goes to the local hospital.what is the policy at Kinnermony? is it anything goes or is it that the catches are that good that the beat has had so many fish that the fish killed have all been second fish!!
Its nice to hear that Tulchan D beat has had fish as they have had a lean few years up there,I take it Robert wont be welcoming his guest back with open arms!!The old school attitudes must change,this is acceptable if it is a youngsters 1st fish (ghillies discretion applied).
I am still off the opinion that the re capture rate of spring fish adds to the figures and it is a pity that the tagging scheme is still not being used.but who cares as long as there are fish in the river to re capture anglers will return!!:)
As far as I am aware Kinneromy have killed everything they have caught.
I understand that the first fish goes to the old folks home but the second?
I totally agree that attitudes have to change I would change the Spey board rules that everything goes back same as the Dee and that bleeding fish are handed in the estate, it is amazing how the numbers of bleeders stopped on the Dee when the estates kept the fish.
 
#6 ·
Hi W.G.

I beleive that you are a member of the board,what action will they take against non compliance?I dont think that total catch and release is the answer,as some anglers might like to take 1 fish home with them after spending quite a lot of money on their weeks fishing, after all these paying tenants are the lifeblood of the river and the local economy its down to commonsense!
The Speyboards policy is I think pretty good if used correctly,I know the Dee policy is different but I have seen this being abused as well,as long as they never go down the old smoked Salmon for fish returned route again as there will be many more fish recorded.
I think it would be considered a great success if the river as a whole were to record a 75% release of fish for any given season that would take care of the people who for whatever reason would like to retain a fish.I think that more people now are realising the plight of the wild Salmon and are happily returning these fish,how many people do you now see returning fish who would never have considered it 5 years ago? they too must be applauded,its all an education but there must still remain a strong pull for these anglers to come and fish Scottish rivers and
be educated by ghillies and other like minded anglers.The last thing we need to be constantly reminded off is the terrible fog at Murmansk Airport and those dammned choppers!and yes I do know they have catch and release as well,just as well as the helicopters would not get off the ground with some of those catches.
 
#8 ·
JS
I'm definately not a member of the Spey board, if I was I would have to be a bit more circumspect with my opinions about certain beats and their appalling record on catch and release. I am unsure what action the board can take as it is only a recomendation and if beats wish to abuse the recomendation there is little they can do.

I fished Cairnton on the Dee and they still offer rewards for returning fish, whisky or smoked salmon I believe but as I failed to catch a springer I never found out.

I cannot understand this compulsion some anglers have to take a fish home. I have seen some awful things killed at the backend for smoking, they would be better smoking some fish flavoured cotton wool.

In my opinion, if these fish killers decide not to return to the Spey the Spey will be a better place without them.

I hear that the Strathspey Association have had a few fish but have not heard about Castle Grant.
 
#9 ·
Hi W.G.

That clears that one up about the board then!!
I think your cotton wool dark smokers was a good point,thats when I think your thoughts on the Dee rules should kick in,total catch and release after 1st August no exceptions!!
Regardless what walk of life you are in there will always be the greed factor,how many times have you heard the stories on the riverbank? Its just a fact of life!!
You would be a good candidate for the Spey Fishing Hotline!!
Just ask the tennant -Are you going to keep any fish then?
If the answer is yes,you could tell him dont bother coming then and fish their beat
:)
 
#10 ·
Good to hear some encouraging news from the old country.

What's happening at Tulcan these days? I was lucky enough to spend a few days there back in the early 90s but I heard it had changed hands. It would be nice to stay there again one day.
 
#11 ·
Lummels,
Castle Grant have had a few fish. The Grantown association had 3 fish two weeks ago as had the Abernethy association. Havent heard how they did last week. The Dee is fishing well with fish caught as far upstream as just above Ballater, although as usual for this time of year the majority have been from Aboyne down.

Adrian,
Tulchan belongs to the Litchfields, I believe they have owned it for many years. By the way I see we share the same birthday.
 
#12 ·
Hi Graham

Thanks for the info
Thats pretty encouraging to see the fish spread throughout
both River systems,this certainly bodes well for the rest of the season,given the right conditions.
Would I be right in saying that Tulchan changed hands in 1995 when the Litchfields bought it from the Panchaud family?
I was speaking to a friend today who was telling me that the Tweed has got off to a cracking start!he had 3 springers in 1 day!
while other guests had 4 more on the same day!!All fish were returned no bleeders!!
By the way happy birthday
 
#13 ·
I'm almost sure the Litchfields bought Tulchan before 1995; I think late '80's would be nearer the mark. Gerald Panchaud (and his son Paul) fished with us in Norway in, I think, 1982. There was a well-founded rumour that anyone fishing Tulchan in subsequent years might have seen a photograph in the huts of Gerald standing behind an impressive array of fish. The truth, though, was that he didn't catch them all himself, but that didn't deter him from posing for the 'hero shot'! He had quite a 'hand' of sporting property; I believe he owned Tulchan, Amhuinnsuidhe and Mar Lodge simultaneously.

Springers do seem to have been better this year. The Fishtweed website reported 157 last week, including 26 for both Lower Floors and Sprouston - the latter is just a 2 rod beat, incidentally - against a 5 year average for the whole month of 30 for each beat. Equivalent sites for Dee and Tay also seen to indicate good numbers compared to the 5 year average. One or two encouraging noises coming from Ireland, too, I think.
 
#14 ·
One or two encouraging noises coming from Ireland, too, I think.

Certainly Currane is looking good ,they have had their largest fish for some ten years at 24lbs and some boats coming in with two fish ,first seatrout are in as well with the first specimen fish coming to the fly .
 
#15 ·
Gardner / Andy

Hi Guys

Thats cracking news from the Tweed, Currane and the other Scottish Rivers!!This backs up what I have been hearing also.
That 24 pounder from Ireland must have been a specimen fish.
Gardner.
I am still not too sure about that date for the sale of Tulchan!!as I think that I fished it the year it was sold

I wonder if W.G. would know this one?
 
#16 ·
I recall being at Tulcan in 1991 and I think it was then still owned by Mrs. Panchaud. I fished 'A' beat - the Ghillie's name was Warren. It was September - not prime time - but there were a lot of fish sporting their autumn colors headed upstream. We had fresh grouse for dinner. Guests had been out hunting them with hawks.

I have never seen so many original works of art and best London guns in one place before.:smokin:
 
#17 ·
I know nothing about the sale of Tulcan, I only fish there on the daily lets when you don't have to take a cottage.

Warren there lies a tale. Warren no longer works for Tulcan he was gillie at C beat in the end. The story goes he was and still is very friendly with one of the guests wives. I cannot divilge further on a public forum.

Just home from the Dee my fishing partner had a 18lb fish, I had three good pulls but thats all.
 
#18 ·
Hi Adrian

Its a great pity that you did not make it in the spring or early summer of 1991,as that was a terrific year for them at Tulchan.
The works of art you seen hanging on the walls and the fantastic gun collection in the lodge are still there,in fact since 91 these have been added to its something else!!

W.G.
When you say "there lies a tale"can you remember the pony tail!!
 
#19 ·
??

"I cannot understand this compulsion some anglers have to take a fish home."

Malcolm, I happen to have a family who all like to eat Salmon. I also have many friends who like to eat Salmon. I myself like to eat Salmon, so why is it so bad to take ONE home to have for the table. They are a source of food to be harvested in moderation and within the limits of conservation. Conservation doesn't always mean 100% release!

Unfortunately enough it's not until July when I have my fishing trip to Norway that I can bring a fish home for the BBQ and my family to enjoy. That's after I've spent a good few quid in my home country. I'm not complaining, cause I know the rules, but please don't start going down the road of compulsary catch and release. It's not required in "most" cases.
I think 90% C&R is well above what is required for the Spey to survive and flourish.

I did have my eyes opened this year on the Dee. Apart from the good numbers of fish running and being caught (and released)
I was quite alarmed at some of rules adopted by owners and ghilles of certain beats. It appears that a hooked and lost fish (at the net) is counted on some beats. No wonder some of the catch return figures are looking up!!!!! How ridiculous is that. Next we'll be counting kelts!!!! (-:
Personally I'm not interested in Whisky and smoked salmon as compensation or reward.



Anyway, tightlines to all and let's keep things in perspective!

I'm back on Dee-side in May. Hope the Springers are still running.
 
#20 ·
Re: ??

storlaks said:
"I cannot understand this compulsion some anglers have to take a fish home."

Malcolm, I happen to have a family who all like to eat Salmon. I also have many friends who like to eat Salmon. I myself like to eat Salmon, so why is it so bad to take ONE home to have for the table. They are a source of food to be harvested in moderation and within the limits of conservation. Conservation doesn't always mean 100% release!

It's not required in "most" cases.
I think 90% C&R is well above what is required for the Spey to survive and flourish.





I think


It good to see that the future of the Spey is important as you thinking things will be ok. I mean the scientists are spending the Spey Boards money on research suggesting that the first fish should be returned, beats are changing this to allow anglers to tke a fish home, my solution to stop this happening is to make the Spey the same as the Dee everything goes back.

If you want a fish visit a fishmonger.
 
#21 ·
Malcolm, I am sure you are aware that some beats on the Dee still allow guests to kill fish. So this dismisses the theory that a compulsory C&R rule from the board stops fish being killed. It absolutely doesn't.

IMO, what the Spey have done is correct. They have left a bit of decision making to the angler thus stopping this ridiculous situation where 1 person fishing on one bank kills a fish and the other guy on the opposite bank is kicking up a fuss because he has been TOLD to put everything back.

If the Spey is reaching around 90% C&R (or even close to that) then I would say that's pretty good going....or is that still not enough for you?

As for visiting a fishmongers.....well they don't sell many fresh wild salmon steaks in the south east of France. Anyway I still get satisfaction from eating what I catch, even though it is Norwegian and not Scottish.
 
#22 ·
No I'm sorry it is no where near good enough. Anglers should all be told to return the fish that they catch. Most beats on the Spey follow the boards rules but others still allow fishermen to murder spring salmon. Kinermony being a prime example. Greedy fishermen will always find an excuse to murder fish, IMHO the fish should be confiscated and given to the estate.

The few Dee beats that are breaking the rules should be named, shamed and brought into line.

Spring salmon are far to scarce and important to be eaten.
 
#24 ·
As I've said before it's all about finding a balance. C&R is one factor and is important, but it's not the answer to all the issues regarding the Spring Salmon decline. You see the Tweed seems to be flourishing and it has the same C&R rules as the Spey, but it also did many other things prior to and in parallel to C&R introduction.

I know another example of a river in Norway where there is no C&R but proper river management has brought this river back to be one of the best in the country. Only 10 years ago it was in serious decline. There are also other examples where C&R have been inplace for years on certain rivers and no significant improvements has been seen.

One beat on the Spey killing fish isn't going to put the Spring run in jeopardy, so why bother yourself. If the river is now being managed properly, things will improve. ,
 
#25 ·
You'll notice, Topher, that he really didn't answer your question. I've followed this debate at times in the UK publications and one thing you can be sure of is that the catch and fillet crowd has no answer to that very question. It's always about their "right" and "needs" to take some fish home. That's why many of that ilk now go to Iceland where on many rivers they're allowed to kill even more fish. In fact, I gave up fishing there because I needed a barf bag after coming in from fishing and seeing twenty or thirty dead fish in plastic bags each day.
 
#26 ·
Well JR, for your information, I'm not part of any catch and fillet crowd, as you so put it. When I fish on my chosen rivers, many of then catch and release, I adhere to the rules and like I said before, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me are these obsessed people who can't see by catch and release as the be all and end all of conservation. It's an easy and cheap answer for many river systems!!!! Diverts responsibility from the owners to the anglers very nicely.

If a river system(i.e. in Iceland) can sustain killing fish by rod and line for food consumption, then why should it not be done? The bloody nets take enough, don't they? It's all about balance. A river system can only sustain a certain amount of fish, so if there are sufficient numbers returning, then a controlled killing of fish is quite acceptable.

I understand that the Spey, like the Dee some years ago, may benefit from an increase in Spawning fish, so a form of C&R is required to maximise the numbers reaching the Redds, but does that mean a compulsary C&R rule throughtout the river......not IMO. The majority of Salmon fishers are happy to put fish back and will do so even if they are allowed to kill. It's only the small percentage that do as they wish and show no respect. That small percentage won't make the difference, so leave it be... and don't punish the "honest" salmon fisher who may decide to take a fish home for his weeks fishing. The Spey's C&R policy, like the Tweeds, is a good.

As for handing fish into the estate to be given a side of smoked farmed salmon......this is nonsense.


I'm not sure what question I didn't answer, but I standby what I say. Proper River management and a considerate and manageable C&R policy is the way ahead.
 
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