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Danbo 02-18-2003 02:35 AM

Bad News

Read at own risk!

juro 02-18-2003 08:01 AM

Yes, it is bad news indeed that many indigenous species have perished by our past exploitations and now we've replaced them with species that make it even harder for them to recover.

I guess I have the perspective that protection of the resources comes before enjoyment of sport. It may be too late in the game to try anything stupid now, but maybe there are reasonable measures out there worth investigating, maybe not.

My point is this - as anglers and outdoorsmen should we ever put sport in front of preservation of wild places and their inhabitants?

BobK 02-18-2003 08:01 AM

Not Really ....
This study has it's head in the sand!!! There wasn't one word of "invasive exotic" species, and their impact on the "native" as well as "Intentionally introduced" species.

These include Zebra Mussels, Quagga Mussels, New Zealand Mud Snail, Echinogrammus Scud, Round Gobies, to name some. While the full impact of these is unknown at this point in time, research is being performed by the states. I was fortunate enough to attend NYSDEC meeting on the subject. And, they are continuing their studies, with the aid along with federal and college help (e.g. Cornell University). These fisheries biologists and experts deserve our thanks. Following is a summary of the "status" of Lake Ontario:

Populations of native naturally occurring Grammus scuds, the freshwater Mysis shrimp, and the total food web have declined dramatically as these "invasive exotics" population has exploded. Hence,the food web has declined, the forage base has declined, and desired species will decline. The actual cause hasn't been determined exactly at this point in time, but is under extreme scrutiny. The effects of lampreys, of course, has been well documented; at least these can be controlled with minimal effect on other species. (Notice I didn't say "zero" effect.)

Sounds like this publication is just an ecologist's "wet dream" to push an agenda that is doomed to failure, pushed by "his" brand of "selected" scientific facts and history.

My opinion.


Danbo 02-18-2003 08:40 AM

Bob K, I felt the same reaction as you. Still a sad subject non the less. Dan'l

juro 02-18-2003 08:51 AM

You've done your homework Bob for sure, and I respect that.

But let's move away from this study, or any particular study or region or situation for a second and look at the question that is at the very apex of this decision tree:

"as anglers and outdoorsmen should we ever put sport in front of preservation of wild places and their inhabitants?"

BobK 02-18-2003 10:12 AM

Juro, I hate to say this, but until we get the human population under control, I don't know how to do it, and I DO have a very scientific background and several degrees, and am now retired.

This wasn't "homework", just a statement of facts, presented to the public by biologists I respect in late January of this year. Left alone, and funded fully, they could do a fantastic job, but state budgets, and the economy limit them. (Incidentally, I try to keep in touch with them on a regular basis.)

They will control this to the best of their ability, I am sure.

Now, please take your time to read the next part objectively.

An interesting question to all the environmentalists is this - How many trees did your house cost?

And now another - for your car, for example, couldn't you have combined several of those "trips" this week to save fuel if you just thought about it?

This can be carried on as far as you want to go, ad absurdum.

Not being wise, and recognizing the need to conserve, we have to be realistic and think about it in these terms. I think you can see that we are not approaching the problem and our positions fairly. We can't save it for "us" and say "screw the rest of the people". We have to be realists - there is a limited earth and it is putting up with an expanding human population, and I don't think there is a practical solution in sight.

Hopefully, there will be.


juro 02-18-2003 10:45 AM

Bob -

I read every word in detail, but unless I've missed something, you've avoided the question entirely.

Was there some relationship to the question re: prioritizing sport over stewardship in there that I missed somehow?

You made several good points albeit tangential, valid and important.

BobK 02-18-2003 12:12 PM

What I'm trying to point out...
Juro, what I'm trying to say is that every new person that comes into the world wants food, water, clothes and shelter. The population is growing. We can just protect resources so long before the masses will push us out of the way to get what they want, and fish and trees will go by the wayside.

Best thing for the world will be when our species goes extinct - and based on history and archaeology, we will, eventually!

Sorry for the confusion.


Danbo 02-18-2003 01:15 PM

Dear Bob K, this debate is becoming spiritual in matter now. Where's our faith in humanity or even Divine intervention?
I hope we don't have to become extinct before we can actually help our environment.
Sorry ,it's really none of my business how you feel..I posted the report because I found it so upsetting! I wondered what others felt. Will science offer a solution eventually or will nature just run her course?

removed_by_request 02-18-2003 01:19 PM


Originally posted by juro

My point is this - as anglers and outdoorsmen should we ever put sport in front of preservation of wild places and their inhabitants?


Interesting point, logic dictates that you think of the natural preservation of things but, want of the hunt calls for continued stocking.

It would be a tough choice, I have caught a few Lakers in my day, trust me they are no Steelhead.

I have only one choice, plead the 5th ammendment and continue to enjoy our fishery.

BobK 02-18-2003 08:03 PM

Faith in humanity????
Well, not much faith. Right now, Rochester "political and commercial" interests and Toronto similar interests have come up with a new venture - a "fast ferry" between the two destinations. Now they are commercializing the Rochester "waterfront" area (called Charlotte) and trying to get business and commercial interests interested in that "slum" area along the Genesee "waterfront" for "renovation"(where the river enters into the lake.) Fortunately, the bridge reconstruction of the past year and a half had minimum effect that I could see. Fast Ferry is scheduled to start service this year, unless delayed. This is their idea of "creating job opportunity" and raising the tax base in this "urban renewal" project.

Using taxpayer's money, and state grants, too. I don't know of any legitimate businessmen interested in losing money in this Politicians' Delight, but I am sure no good will come of it, and no one has even talked about "environmental impact" to the prime fishery of the lower Genesee, a great salmon/steelie fishery. By the way, this has major Democratic backing! And the Republicans are aiding and abetting them!

In addition, the Great Lakes are under feasibility study by the Corps of Engineers for "enhancements" to allow use of 1,000 foot ocean-going vessels. (This started under the Clinton Administration) Who knows who will be in charge when the study is completed?) DON'T TRUST ANY POLITICIANS - BOTH PARTIES ARE NOT HELPING US! And don't believe anything they say, either.

So, I think maybe "Divine Intervention" may be the only out!

Just my opinion, as that is what I am observing from the sidelines.

And you wonder why I have "little faith"?


pmflyfisher 02-19-2003 02:02 PM


Lake Erie should take heed on what Michigan has done with Lake Michigan steelhead and salmon stockings. Although I would say the jury is still out on the success of the strategy in Lake Michigan.

I could not beleive the stockings that were going into Lake Erie the last time I looked, they were bigger than Lake Michigan and Erie is much smaller.

removed_by_request 02-19-2003 02:25 PM

They don't have the massive Salmon plants that we do. So it probably evens out.

BobK 02-19-2003 09:03 PM

Lake Erie....
PA has a very small strech of border with Lake Erie, but really stocks a disproportionate number of steelies, regardless. They only have a few small tribs, and they are mobbed, from what I have heard.
Don't know about Ohio, I have heard that they do have some stocking.
NY does some stocking, particularly in the Cattaraugus, in the western end of the sate. From fisheries people, they have one of the best natural reproduction of any of the finger lakes - lots of small feeders, in the headwaters, too. Maybe I'll take a trip down this spring. I understand you have to buy a "reservation permit", as most of the land is Indian reservation.


removed_by_request 02-20-2003 10:32 AM

It's held by the Seneca tribe.

Been thinking about a trip out there for a while, looks like a good sized river, which would allow for the use of the smaller Spey rods. Probaly a 12' 8w would would rather well.

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