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-   -   sharkskin (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=26402)

dry 01-09-2008 01:25 AM

sharkskin
 
Hi, I bought a sharkskin 3 weight and 5 weight. The leaders I used did not have a loop so I had to tie the leaders onto the the sharkskin loop. One sharkskin broke after just 3 days, and the other after a week. I read on another bulletin board that a another user had similar problems with the loops breaking, and was accussed of being at fault for tieing the leader onto the line instead of using a loop to loop. Well pardon me, but not all leaders have loops! So has SA actually gotten so big for their britches that they will sell you a $100 fly line and accuse you of improper use for tieing your leader to the loop? I have used Cortland lines for 2 years and never had such a problem!!

fishmann 01-09-2008 01:51 AM

Sad to hear that :frown:

sean 01-09-2008 10:27 AM

No offense but why are you buying $100 fly lines without a knowledge of loop systems...seems a visit back to the basics of fly fishing knots should be considered.

Tying a leader onto a loop without a loop to loop knot would severely stress the loop. It is not made to just tie a knot into the middle of the loop and have things work, I am not surprised it broke.

Learning a simple surgeons knot to loop your leaders is in order. Then you can use loop to loop knots. Otherwise now that the loops are broken just cut them off and nail knot your leader to the fly line. You were not using the loops for what they were made for so just cut them off.

What I would do is bring the lines back to the fly shops you bought them at. Have them teach you a surgeons loop knot for your leaders. See if they will replace the sa lines for you or install new loops for you. The line is still fine without the loop, or just remove the loop and nail knot your leader to it.

-sean

teflon_jones 01-10-2008 12:21 PM

So how do you like the performance of the sharkskin versus a standard line in other respects, such as casting distance, shooting ability, floating, etc?

Trucha 01-11-2008 08:55 AM

One hundred buck for a line! I would like to see more opinion on it and to repeat what has been said before; casting, fishability, floating, etc.

dewey 01-12-2008 01:32 PM

hey there.
You should really pay attention to Sean's advice if you are going to keep with flyfishing as a major activity.

Because a line's loop broke does not mean that line is total junk. Also, tying a loop into the butt of a leader is one of the simpler knots out there. Plus, you could cut the loop and tie a nail knot.

Before you go trashing a product, you should be aware of these things. It wasn't the line's fault.

That said, I'd question seriously the value of a 100 dollar line.

I have not cast it.

dry 01-13-2008 01:30 AM

After the loop broke I took the line to a fly shop and they put a amnesia loop onto the line. It broke too. Went back and it broke again. Lost over a foot of line. Never had it happen in over 2 year of "cheap" cortland lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewey
hey there.
You should really pay attention to Sean's advice if you are going to keep with flyfishing as a major activity.

Because a line's loop broke does not mean that line is total junk. Also, tying a loop into the butt of a leader is one of the simpler knots out there. Plus, you could cut the loop and tie a nail knot.

Before you go trashing a product, you should be aware of these things. It wasn't the line's fault.

That said, I'd question seriously the value of a 100 dollar line.

And as far as Sean, notice how when someone says " I dont mean to be the worlds biggest flaming asshole scumbag but...", they tend to be the....

I have not cast it.


sean 01-13-2008 06:56 AM

Quote:

And as far as Sean, notice how when someone says " I dont mean to be the worlds biggest flaming asshole scumbag but...", they tend to be the....
I may just be (and now that I think about it I totally am, good to be the worlds best at something) but now you are saying totally different loops broke, a couple different times and it is still SAs fault:roll: Maybe you should look elsewhere for the problem...or don't. Sounds like that flyshop will be in for making a lot of money off you in the future.

Oh here is the google search for the surgeons knot, Take 5 minutes away from breaking your loops all the time and learn it. Problem solved

I just get a little tired of the customer is always right mentality where people feel they can throw a product under the bus because they do not use it correctly. Which reminds me I need to return that fly rod I have been using as a walking stick, damn tip keeps breaking! Oh and let me tell you about that fly reel and these nails I was hammering with it. I cannot believe it is all dented up, and that fly line I am using to hang my laundry on, just does not cast the same anymore. :frown:

-sean

Swalt 01-13-2008 08:01 AM

Personally I would not spend $100 bucks on a fly line. Good advice from Sean but I don't see where anyone has used this line other than Dry. Sean or anyone that has used it, what were your opinions of it?

juro 01-13-2008 09:18 AM

Do people use those loops? I cut them off and sometimes the first foot of useless level line off too.

It takes me about 15 seconds to tie a nail knot using my double-ended needle waist deep in the water, which I need to do once or twice a season if that as indestructible as the simple nail knot is. I don't even bother with a loop connection since it's just as quick to tie a blood knot just like the other joints on my hand-tied leaders.

For me a line is judged by it's casting, coating (buoyancy, durability, dirt repulsion, etc) and core.

Like Walt said... how's the line?

Swalt 01-13-2008 01:36 PM

I use the loops that are welded in the end of of the Rio lines. They hold up real well. I I pretie a loop in the butt end of my leaders, before a trip, and all you have to do is pull one out and slip the other one on. Just easier for me that way.

dewey 01-13-2008 08:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And as far as Sean, notice how when someone says " I dont mean to be the worlds biggest flaming asshole scumbag but...", they tend to be the....

For the record, this looks like I had written this in Dry's second post because it shows up in the quote box. I did not.
I believe that is Dry's writing.

I have read on other boards that the Sharkskin is a good line. A few posters noticed measurable improved distance. All note that the line makes a noise ( a wizzing, from the line's texture) in the guides - some liked this, others did not. Still too soon to measure durability. No one was sure if it was going to be worth the $100. No one was jumping up and down that this is the greatest thing ever, but many liked it.

Bear in mind, the above is a secondhand paraphrase of stuff I heard on the internet...

sazan 01-14-2008 08:21 AM

I cut them off and sometimes the first foot of useless level line off too

Juro,

Did you mean the first 6-12" of very fine tip just behind the welded loop ?
I think manufactures, like RIO, before they started to make lines with front loop, were adding 6-12" front tip to be used for tying a nail knot.
Over the time this tip is being reduced. But I have no idea why they still incorporate the tip with welded loop?


Martin

juro 01-14-2008 11:57 AM

If there is such a level tip (most do) I often cut it off and blend a butt section that maintains the energy coming off the loop into the leader. Especially for saltwater lines where I am throwing heavier flies in windy conditions.

This is particularly true with sinking tips, which I build from shooting heads cut in half. The level foot on either end doesn't add any value to riding the fly lower in the column or turnover.

I have to reneg, I use loops sometimes... but nail knotted butt loops with perfection loop in hvy test butts nail knotted to the line. I don't use loops on sink tips because they snag more and break. I don't use loops on flats setups because everything is obvious in those conditions. Once a nail knot became as easy as a loop connection there was no benefit to it.

By tying my own I learned a lot about leader dynamics adapting them to situations. Leader design makes a huge difference in casting, presentation and even landing fish.

One more note - I wonder what % of the cost of a line is in the manufacturing process for the loop? It's a costly process both in fabrication and as this thread implies - service.

I have to share this true story... one day in the wake of the "River Runs Thru It" popularity I was in a high-brow fly shop and a customer came in while I was shopping and scolded the pro staffer for the loop breaking, saying "he lost a day of fishing". I had to shake my head at this guy - imagine not being able to re-attach a leader! I feel bad that FF businesses are suffering as the vogue angler vanishes from our waters after the period of explosive growth, but I am happy that more 'real' practitioners are regaining the ranks.

jimS 01-14-2008 04:36 PM

Nail knots can fail on monofilament core flylines. That is, the knot can cut thru the outer coating of the flyline and slide off the core. Monofilament cores are pretty standard on both intermediate and sinktip flylines. Floaters are typically multifilament core with a large radius of outer coating. Nail knots, or even better, needle nail knots, are fine on floating lines.

If you are still inclined to use a nail knot, I would suggest you use a double nail knot and coat it with Aquaseal or Knot Sense.

Since I use Rio flylines, the factory loops have proved to be robust and loop-to-loop connections with a cat's paw provide a pretty slim connection. Flylines without a factory loop can be upgraded to loops with braided double-catch loops that are 100 per cent. Loop knots for the butt section can include the perfection loop, double surgeon, or the Kreh loop.

In on-the-water emergency situations, a must know knot has got to be the nail knot. While Juro uses a double eye needle, I have found that a two-inch long tube from a WD-40 can works well for me.

There is a host of approaches for connecting leaders to flylines, but I want the strongest connections I can get, and that is what prompts me to use the outlined methods.


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