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Nathan Smith 08-30-2000 12:52 PM

4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Sorry for the misleading Subject header but I want to get everyone's attention not just the regulars.

I have been thinking alot about the attitude different groups have about fly-fishing. With the Politics of the Reel-Time vs. FF forum vs. FF Saltwaters. About all the childish antics in places like Wacky. Or how people hord information and then aren't willing to share it. I am guilt of it too. I have a few spots that I don't want anyone to know about. A few weeks ago I went to a spot that I didn't think anyone know about. It was set up perfect, 24-28" bass in 1ft of water. Awesome sight casting. As I pulled up though I saw a truck with New Jesery plates on it as I walk out I saw two guys standing right on the flat. Doing this at that tide prevented the fish from coming up, basically destroyed my plans. I was pissed. I let them know in every non-verbal way I knew. That evening I went back and ran into the one of the guys. He apologized if he screwed up my plans. A really nice guy all said. I told him he didn't need to apologize, that it was just as much his water as mine. I talked to him about how to fish the place, and we have a great 30-45 minute talk.

In speaking with Juro I found out that this site gets tens of thousands of hits but only about 30 people post on a regular basis. That I don't think is fair. Juro, sorry if I should say these things on the site but I think they need to be said. I post on this site because I have a lot of friends on this board that have helped me and I want to make my knowledge available. I also feel like I owe Juro it. He has done alot for us and one of the best things we can do for him is to help this site.

To all those that take and don't give, well I just want to say that that just sucks, particularly those that are professionals. We understand that this is how you make a living. We can help each other, not just compete.
There must be 20,000 miles of shore line between southern Maine and RI, all the stripers aren't located in a dozen or so places. If we are civil and work together we can develop more location while protecting the fish we love. We should be fighting against the waste of the fish by shameful people who kill fish after fish or keep short fish. By a commercial fishing industry of which 60% or more goes to feed animals in forms like cat food. With conservation there can be thousands of places along the shores of N.England that consistently produce big fish. We need to act more like a community. Sorry for the sermon. If everyone share information it would be a good start. It is hard to pass on the best spots but rather the hitting the same old spots find some new spots. Explore. Give a break to the keeper spots and hit spots that are schooly hang outs. Get a 5wt rod ,3X-4X tippet, #4-#8 flies and hang on. One of my favority is using #4 white gurler this time of year on the bayside. On a 5wt a 19 striper can be a heck of a fight. Anyway ther is my rant for the day. Sorry.

josko 08-30-2000 02:16 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Well, I'm one of the site lurkers who might have relevant occasional info but by and large keep silent on this board. When I do have something to say, I stick it on another board - simply because it makes sense to have all the comments on a single site, and not shotgun them all over. Also, folks I fish with read and contribute there. I've never met the owners, just makes sense to post there. Most of us know the sites, and the posters' flavor should be familiar.

Now to posting. In years past I wrote up detailed site and fishing info, only to find these often backfired. I'd see as many as a dozen new faces at a spot mentioned the night before, some actually upset at 'josko' because they couldn't find fish there the following day. No $#!t, Sherlock. These posts didn't work for me.

So what kind of info. does it make sense to share? I was out last night and noticed that large (3'+) bass are approaching shore, which didn't happen 'till three weeks later last year. If you look at my today's post, it tries to say that without drawing a crowd. If you fish for big fish at night, it has the necessary and sufficient info to influence your strategy. It is not a tutorial on how and where to catch big fish at night. Saying I got 4 fish 38" - 44" on a fly rod at Fay beach contains a lot less information, and is too presumptious for my taste anyway. I know a half doz. people who are serious about fly rod bass in my area. They've read it and know what it means.
I suppose much info of this sort is disseminated by email, and I respect people who do that. I've sent out a few emails on the topic this am, and also get a trickle back. It balances out, IMO. So do the websites.

At the beginning, there was Reel-time, and it was good. For various reasons, it's factioned, and that also seems to work. Not sure we can control this, anyway. So I've got a doz sites bookmarked and check them more or less regularly, and even post on a few when the content matches the board flavor. I'm not really sure what I could add to this site, for instance, except an occasional gear blurb or a freshwater doh-post. Whatm would you like to see me do?

Lefty 08-30-2000 02:35 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I agree with Joskos comments about the various niches the boards have taken to. The one thing that concerns me is that now we have the internet as a tool to zero in on the fish. (not to mention cell phones, gps, IR Images of the gulfstream and more). Without giving specific info, a post can still steer people into the general area. For instance take a guy who is trailoring to the cape each weekend. 3 weeks ago Chatham was hot. Now it's Falmouth. He will go where the postings dictate. There's many boats out there, it must add up at least a little. If only 30 people post and hundreds fish off that info, that seems like a problem. It's nice to have a free flow of info but does it hurt the fishery?
On one of the boards this week I read a post by a guy who who had his first stripers on the fly. He said.." new goal is a keeper on the fly". All in 1 season? He can do it too-do armed with a few posts. Invariably these debates ALWAYS come down on the "Freedom for the internet" side and the info will never be stemmed. I'm ready to get trounced here. Shields up!

Hey Josko: Boneclave? Joskolater to Wasburn for dinner? C'mon by.


josko 08-30-2000 02:42 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I don't mind driving for a day. Still embarrassed about skunking the Estey brothers last year, though. BTW, if you're interested in heading ofshore, drop me or Larry an email. Tomorrow, anyone? Slowly, but surely we're making sense of the bluefin turf. You haven't seen closed-mouthed until you've tried to talk to those guys...

And another thing. Guiding on upper cape has become a down-n-dirty cutthroat business. i\I wouldn't trust most of those 'gennelmen' not to steal my boat blind, much less expect them to post helpful stuff, or anything other than infomercials ... 'C'mon down, I got space for a few more...' Don't know how to get rid of them - probably can't as long as fishing stays as good as it is.

juro 08-30-2000 03:15 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
That's really too bad about the upper cape... your area is such a unique zone nestled in the warm side of the transition between the north atlantic and the temperate mid-atlantic, buffered by Nantucket Sound and then made into a summer species mixing pot by the Vineyard, Elizabeths and Buzzards Bay. I've even seen puffers at Falmouth, and all kinds of subtropical looking fish and fauna at Woods Hole. Your home waters are clearly the tunoid zone extraordinaire which is probably why the boat operators are so damn ridiculous this time of year.

I've been reading about Terry Nugent's adventures with MikeZ at Lackeys and wondering if the Boneclave should be held elsewhere...

BTW - are you around September 10-12? (The clave would be honored to host a guest appearance by the venerable Josko!)

<font color="0000ff">DOH! I just read the above threads thoroughly!</font><!--color-->

Great to hear you wouldn't mind driving for a day! Much thanks in advance.

As far as your site contributions, I see your point about posting in one place - but I can tell you we all appreciate your input on this board. I hope it's like another fly shop that you visit once in a while besides the mega-tackle shops where you shop. You're always very welcome here and I know you'll like the guys that hang out here.

I think this site is different in that it's really dedicated to flyfishing except where it comes to a shore lunch of fluke and even then we get a lot on flies

Seriously, your adventures in bluewater are thrilling to read, and any insights you post are appreciated here without any chance of generating spite for a skunking in a spot you describe - not from this group.

I am not saying one's better or worse, just that we are more of a sportsman's club (non-exclusive) as opposed to a town meeting. People are expected to be gentlemen (and ladies) here and get involved because they like being able to get together at this level. No where is this more evident than at our conclaves, which usually go beyond our highest expectations for camaraderie and friendship building.

We sure aren't as big as Jeff's or as old as Reel-time but being a member of all three I can say that we really know how to get together and have a great time in the Forum... not to mention score some great fish!

Great to hear from you again, and I really look forward to getting out on the water with you soon.

best regards,


Nathan Smith 08-30-2000 03:30 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Good points. I wrote that post about a particular group that has actually made arangment to "take over" a spot that memebers on the board discovered or rediscovered. Yes it is frustrating to see al those people. I would just like to see us working together more often, and being more respectful to each other.

Hawkeye 08-30-2000 04:07 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Hey Josko,

I'm sorry your feeling bad about last year. Neither Mike or I have got a clue what you are talking about. We are pretty easy going guys believing that's the best way to get the most enjoyment out of life. So whatever it was don't give it another moment's thought.

My brother and I (especially my brother) have been dreaming about getting a "big" boat and looking for big tunoids. Until the business takes off that's just going to have to wait though. We would be honored to scrub the boat, untangle lines, bring beverages and food, or whatever just for the oportunity to watch and see it done first hand. So if you ever need a couple of hard working deck hands eager to learn drop us a line because we are your guys.

striblue 08-31-2000 08:24 AM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I am not sure if I understand this message and it appears to be a few issues within one message. But I recognized the fact that I mentioned "spots" at the lighthouse. My sole purpose in doing so was to share it with the people I have met in person thought this board. I met Juro years ago at the Lighthouse in Chatham and did not even know about the board until Keith Lincoln said I counld connect with Juro about the South Monomoy trips. I was never tremendously concerned about the general public reading those messages since you really needed to know where to go at the light house plus the fact that even if you are in the spots you have to know how to fish them anyway and they do change from day to day. It was just that there were a few places ,as there always have been at the lighthouse which seem to produce more fish in a given year. So... one of the crew from this board I knew came down and met me and we were in the "spot" and nothing please me more than seeing him hook and land his first keeper after losing one a few minutes earlier. Incidently ,there was never a hugh group of people who showed up after the posts. My only point is that My purpose is to share information with those I have met personally though the board and could care less if someone else decides to show up at these spots ,which I do agree, usually tend to be overrated and are constantly changing. Just my two cents worth. I think it is a great group of true flyfisherman and if bait fisherman shows up so what. One final thing, Thoughout my fishing life, I have caught and released more and bigger fish on a flyrod than I ever have on any other method. We all know that.

juro 08-31-2000 09:01 AM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I think in the end it's how we decide to conduct ourselves that counts, and also how we look at the great sport of flyfishing. We're probably never going to change the butthead mentality through brute force, but we can by attrition. It's kind of like driving - it only takes one ####### to ruin the whole 4-way intersection. If everyone shows consideration, the concept of four diametrically opposed stop signs works just fine. If we work to create and preserve a great community of sportsmen who respect each other, the environment and the gamefish - it's contagious! I think our conclaves prove that to be true.

Wow, it's been a great season and I really look forward to the part that follows the current August slump! Can you imagine the fishing's going to get much, much BETTER???

Aaron 08-31-2000 09:32 AM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Great thread Nathan! I posted some other thoughts under a different heading.

On the hits without the posts... I am one of those people who tends to visit this and other sites regularly. I rarely post. One reason for my 'lurking' is that I have been so damn busy this summer I have not done a lot of fishing. So, on that front I rarely can contribute. Also, it does take time to write a meaningful post, and I'm not one for posting just for posting's sake. To a certain extent I am doing my 'fishing' this year via the posted reports, which is a pisser. Earlier this year I got a login name and password for this and other sites, with the full intention of contributing, but it hasn't happened. Maybe next year.

I know that Juro has some great and grand ideas for this site, and in time most will probably bear fruit. Considering some of the crap that permeates some other sites (e.g.,6 posts in a row saying 'cool' or 'awesome' but nothing else, and even personal attacks), I like this site because the crap is minimal. That is a quality that will contribute to the site's longevity. Remember, this is a relatively new site, so will mature in time.


steve moore 08-31-2000 10:14 AM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I'll chime in here too. I have to admit that I don't check this site as regularly as I should given the amount of talent that seems to hang out here. Josko's comment about guides posting only for free commercials is one of the reasons I don't post too often on where I'm finding fish. I don't want to be known for that, and I also don't want to be lumped in with the others who do. If I feel I can contribute constructively to something, I usually will. I have however found that I am biting my tongue a lot more this season than in years past, and I can't really give an explaination for why. Maybe I am enjoying just sitting back and watching the action. I don't log on to any of the sites with the expectaion that I will see a post and run out and successfully fish the areas mentioned. I think if you rely on posts to figure out your next move, you'll be sorely disappointed. I look at these bulletin boards as a general guide when it comes to fishing spots or action. We all know that just because someone caught X-number of bass in location Z on night Y with the tide at stage P and using lure K with retreive D, that doesn't mean much 24 or even 3 hours later. What it can tell you is that maybe the fish have begun to move to certain geographical areas (like The Harbor) or that a change of technique is needed. If you need a good solvent to remove glue from your deck, which knots folks like to use, or want to know where others have found a particular product, I think the information on these bulletin boards can be very useful. Sometimes it's just plain fun to tell other about a wonderful day on the water with lots of big fish, but I just haven't found it be as personally satisfying lately to spill my guts. I hope that I haven't offended anyone (another reason I don't post very often) and that everyone knows my
e-mailbox is always open.

Nathan Smith 08-31-2000 11:24 AM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
Man, I didn't mean to make everyone feel bad. I just want to vent about a few issues. That post was about three things

1. 99% of people are great. You don't always need to post. I was calling out the 1% that use this and other boards to get information but are never willing to share their knowledge. Particulary some guides that seem to show up with parties right after we have a successful clave, yet are never willing to share there knowledge. I am not expection them to share all the specifics but they should throw some bones.

2. I just wanted to see more posts on the board in general. Juro's put alot of work into this site and the best way to give back is by posting.

striblue 08-31-2000 01:43 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
You did not make me feel bad and I agree with you absolutly on those two points. Juro has done the job and does need the type of support you stated. Thanks.

Lefty 08-31-2000 02:32 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I have to add, since I see no advertising on this board, I assume there is no revenue. If that's the case (please correct me if I'm wrong) this thing has to eventually get payed for by other means (someones pocket). There's probably a way to get sponsorship, but if it comes down to keeping this thing going, let me be the first to say I would gladly pitch in a few bucks if the hat were passed in some way. This board is much more than just another fishing website to me.


striblue 08-31-2000 02:37 PM

RE:4 keeper in 2 hours and no one around
I would as well, Jeff Roop brought the same subject matter up at my place where we gathered after the Friday Rip trip. I am sure we could muster that kind of support.

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