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-   -   spine pain? (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=20269)

Johnnyb 04-26-2005 10:58 PM

spine pain?
 
I just received the custom made T&T Horizon Series fly rod that I won on Ebay. The materials all look high quality and are assembled with care. The first thing I did with the rod after I unwrapped it was to check the spine...well, what I found out (if I am doing the spine check thing right) is that the butt section guides were in line with the spine, but the tip guides were more or less 90 degrees off the spine!!! damn... My question to you rod builders is: am I crazy to try to remove the tip guides and replace them in the correct position to the spine? Any suggestions or thoughts on the importance of spine alignment? Over on the Washington Fly Fishing website, there is some thought that the spine is not so important as some might think. In fact, one post said Sage marks their blanks with spots for guide locations and these spots do not line up with the spine...I'm confused.

JimW 04-27-2005 12:37 PM

I've only spined the rod prior to attaching the guides, now I wonder you get different results once the guides and epoxy are in place.

I'd cast it and if it works the way you want or expect it to. If it doesn't hook why mess with it.

I would never recommend breaking a rod on purpose but if it's under warranty and you were to catch a really really big fish and somehow the top section broke, well then it might be interesting to see if the next section is properly spined.

flytyer 04-27-2005 02:10 PM

Truthfully, this is a raging debate amonnst rod builders and manufacturers. Some say you should always spline the blank and place the guides on the spline. Other say you should always spline the blank and place the guides opposite the spline. Others still say to spline the blank and put the guides 90 degrees to the spline. Some advocate putting guides on opposite sides of the spline on different rod sections. And still others say to place the guides on some rod sections on the spline or 180 degrees from the spline, while putting the guides on other sections 90 degrees to the spline.

And to confuse things even more, there are others, such as Sage (a very respected rod manufacturer), who forget the spline completely and put the guides in line with the straightest rotation of the blank.

In other words, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on the proper orientation of blank spline to guide placement. Therefore, I'd fish the rod as is and not worry about it.

juro 04-27-2005 03:44 PM

You can go along the spine or opposite to it - but never askew. Guides at a 90 degree angle to the spine are just plain wrong unless you plan to tip cast side to side.

debarb 04-27-2005 06:22 PM

spine
 
I think it depends on what you want. There's a soft side and a stiff side in most blanks--the side where the rod bends very readily, and the side which bends least readily. I like the rod bending readily on my forward stroke, so I place the guides accordingly, on the outside of soft bend. If you want a stiffer rod on your forward stroke, and a softer one on your backcast, then you put them on the other side. Don't know that I'd actually notice the difference if they were reversed, but I think I'd notice, as Juro suggests, if the spine were simply ignored

sean 04-27-2005 06:36 PM

Well how does it cast? Bet you will not notice a thing.

-sean

pescaphile 04-27-2005 07:42 PM

Juro's correct here. One way the rod will be stiffest on it's back cast while the opposite will give it's stiffist resisitance on the forward cast. Pick whichever way you want depending on what you think is best.

I've always thought Sage's method would probably result in the guides either on the spine or opposite it when viewed from above. though I've never tried to tell with any blanks.

peter-s-c 04-27-2005 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juro
You can go along the spine or opposite to it - but never askew. Guides at a 90 degree angle to the spine are just plain wrong unless you plan to tip cast side to side.

Tell that to Sage. As Russ says, there's no consensus on spining a blank. When I built rods, I spined them to match my casting style but that doesn't mean they were spined "right". As far as I'm concerned, there's no "right".

Tracking is another issue where there's no consensus -- does it matter or does it not? I tried to ensure that my rods tracked straight but did it make a difference in the way they cast? I can't say that it did.

The only way I can answer the question is to suggest that you spine it the way that it suits you.

juro 04-27-2005 08:44 PM

Peter,

With all due respect of course you express an opinion that does not help me figure out any reasoning behind it.

When someone says that it's important to be on either side of a spine for the energy in a rod to be kept in line during a cast, not much explanation is needed.

But when someone says that wrapping guides out of alignment with a rigid area running the length of the rod, I have to ask...

specifically what kind of casting does this suit?

thanks in advance

Johnnyb 04-27-2005 09:02 PM

Intersting,
If there is, indeed, a spine on a fishing rod, then one should assume that spine to be an axis of a sort, or at least the dividing line between between two similar parts. While the arguments may focus on how to align that spine in relation to the other parts, it is becoming clear that SOME alignment is essential, regardless of the opinion of Dr. Sage.

flytyer 04-28-2005 02:33 AM

I've never heard anyone complain about Sage factory rods not tracking properly, or not casting a line in a straight line despite Sage not splining its blanks prior to wrapping the guides on them. Perhaps having the guides on or exactly opposite the spline only matters when casting very long distances.

To add even more to this subject of what is the correct way to line up guides, when a person casts a fly rod he more often than not is not casting with the guides exactly facing the direction he is casting. In other words, on nearly every cast a person has the rod rotated either to the left or right of the axis of the guides. This includes the best tournament distance casters in the world.

Therefore, if having the guides on the spline or 180 degrees from the spline was so important wouldn't making sure you always have the guides exactly facing the direction he was casting, especially when casting maximum distances? However, the very fact that almost always the rod is rotated from the axis of the spline when making a cast would seem to negate the need to have the rod splined at all.

peter-s-c 04-28-2005 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juro
Peter,

With all due respect of course you express an opinion that does not help me figure out any reasoning behind it.

When someone says that it's important to be on either side of a spine for the energy in a rod to be kept in line during a cast, not much explanation is needed.

But when someone says that wrapping guides out of alignment with a rigid area running the length of the rod, I have to ask...

specifically what kind of casting does this suit?

thanks in advance

Oh, I spined my rods, I'm just pointing out the lack of consensus -- one that appears broad and persistent. That lack of consensus would suggest that spining is largely a matter of fashion rather than function. If it was a matter of demonstrable function then there would be some form of general consensus on the subject as we would be able to satisfactorily prove it one way or the other. I don't think that there is even a consensus on the results obtained (if any) when you place the guides on the spine vs. opposite the spine.

Sage builds their rods so that any curvature of the rod is in one plane, improving appearance, and in the process, ignores the spine. I wonder how many other manufacturers ignore the spine? Many, I would suspect.

I don't specifically remember what I did with which rod, but I'd try and assess the action of the blank then spine it accordingly, including one or two where I reversed the spine in the top section.

Gary W 04-28-2005 03:25 AM

I know some rod builders who swear by attaching the guides directly in line with the spline, be it on the soft or stiff side. This all depends on whether you want the rod to flex better on forward or back stroke, or to bend easily into a fish or give more leverage.

I also know rod builders who say that they line the sections up to be straight as possible and then place the guides accordingly. I have noticed that when you spine a blank properly, sometimes the sections do not line up straight, looking along the blank.

I also know that a well known blank manufacturer states - if you attach a 1 ounce weight to a the end of a blank the spine is unnoticeable.

I think that there may be advantages to playing with the guide placement on a spey rod. The sections on a spey rod get pulled in various directions during all but the overhead cast, and guide placement could be altered from the norm to maximise a rods potential for different casting styles. In fact, Bob Meiser's website has an article where he suggests that any rod builders try to play with the guide placement for this very reason.

This argument will rage on amongst the rod building fraternity, until somebody invents a machine(for consistency) to test if the tracking is affected by guide placement in relation to the blanks spline.

Does any human really notice a considerable difference for anything other than competition casting?

natrix 04-28-2005 12:22 PM

custom made T&T Horizon Series fly rod
 
Johnnyb:

If you go into a shop and take a couple of rods off the rack (Always ask first) and check the spine you will find that they are all over the place. Some high end rods are right on, some arenít. Its not that much trouble to remove and replace guides, you just have to be careful and take your time. On the other hand I guess it depends on what you want to do with your rod as to weather you want a super fine tuned rod or not. How does the rod cast. Does it do what you want it to do, if its OK donít try to fix it. If you want real accuracy or a distance casting tool I think having the guides in line with the spine makes a big difference.

Try test casting the rod and rotating the upper sections of the blank and see if it makes a difference.

I have also had blanks that have a natural curve to them that you can see as you roll the blank around. In that case I have settled for the natural curve of the blank. I donít think that hurts anything really.

Natrix

Gary W 05-02-2005 01:19 PM

JohnnyB,

If you go into a shop and try a few rods from one manufacturer, you will usually find that they are all splined differently. That's because they are built in a factory where time eats into profit margin. Try some and if you cannot find one splined correctly, write to the manufacturer and ask why. Who knows you may get a correctly splined rod at a reduced rate!!


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