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QuebecSporting 02-07-2005 07:50 PM

Double or Single, Snake Roll??
Good Evening,
Fishing Murdoch -Sector 6 York....

My question is the following.... the "x's" are BIG Fish!! :D

Should I use single or double spey or Snake Roll??? :confused:

Oh? and your fly choice ( I won't tell anyone!!) :smokin:


peter-s-c 02-07-2005 09:10 PM

Ann, I know nothing about the York or Atlantics so take this for what little it's worth, but I'd fire a Circle cast about 10' or 15' above those fish and a few feet beyond them, using a baitfish pattern, not a standard Atlantic wet. But before I'd do that, I wouldn't fish from where that guy's standing as it leaves too little time to get the fly swimming right before it reaches the fish. I'd move about 20' or 30' upstream and cast from there.

Big K1 02-07-2005 09:41 PM


I would go with a single. Fly of choice would be a Lady Caroline.
I have never fished for Atlantics though. I don't see how they could
refuse such a sweet fly. :rolleyes:

papenfus 02-07-2005 11:49 PM

I love these types of quizzes so I couldn't resist.
disclaimer: I can't adequately perform any of these casts and I have never fished for Atlantics BUT given the opportunity I would -

1. Follow Peter's advice and move up 20' to 30'
2. tie on a surface fly like a Waller Waker or something with a rifle hitch
3. use a single spey and get that thing skating on the surface just ahead and over those fish to try and entice them to follow and take on the surface.
4. if that didn't work I would then repeat the single spey with some Atlantic wet fly and try to get them to chase a subsurface fly

Gary W 02-08-2005 03:43 AM

Couldn't resist...

So long as the wind was not blowing downstream, I would use the single spey. I would also try to fish from further upstream(initially) to get the fly swimming in front of the fish. If this was not possible then the double spey is as good a cast as any for getting the fly square across the current.

Without knowing the water temperature, time of year, or freshness of the fish it is hard to say what type of fly to use. I fish in Scotland so know only about Atlantic Salmon in general and certainly know nothing about the fish that run Canadian rivers.

However, here goes, if I was fishing from further upstream and fishing the fly slowly across the fish I would fish a small fly size 10 or 12, assuming a water temperature of around 13-18 C (56-65 F). Pattern would probably be a Stoat's Tail variant tied with a flat silver rib, bright yellow tail, and longer arctic fox wing, or a similar dark fly with a trigger point.

If I was fishing with a squarer cast and the fly was coming across the fish quicker, I would switch to a brighter or flashier fly, and maybe go a size up.

Failing that, I would try a collie dog and then a riffled fly. Also, if I could get to the other bank I would try to pester them with a fly on the dangle.

Then if no fish takes I would leave them in peace and try further down stream for a taking fish. Actually, I would probably have left them in peace after the first two attempts and then come back to them if I could find no more takers.

BLACK FRANCIS 02-08-2005 05:27 AM

i would again move up stream as evidenced by the belly in the angler's line. then i would use the reverse double spey cause the wind is always blowing downstream. the fly for that water would be a green machine #10 with a cream colored tail or a green francis just as small. i would hook nothing, beat the water to a froth trying and then let Charlie or Brian catch them behind me. or at least we will see in june. :razz:
good post.

juro 02-08-2005 05:54 AM

Nice situation to be in :)

The key to your decision is wind direction as Gary and Nick mentioned, and secondarily the strength of your various casts. For instance, given no wind use your strongest cast as this is a fair cast distance to get clear of the throat of the current and give the good swing thru. The far bank would be far easier to present to these fish.

Downstream wind choices in order of my preferences:

Left-hand up snake roll*
Right-hand up reverse (backhand) snake roll
Right-hand up reverse double spey
Left-hand up double spey

*where the left-up snake gets 99% of my time in this situation.

Upstream or no wind choices in order of personal pref:

Right-up single spey*
rightup upriver snake
rightup circle spey
leftup reverse single
leftup reverse snap-T

*the quintessential spey cast

Of paramount importance are the conditions - for instance a boulder garden on the Sauk in March would solicit a different response, as would a far reach on the Skykomish in September. Specifically, going to a sinktip in a different pool would get more snap-t's (snap-C's actually) out of me because of the ease by which that cast lifts big flies and sinktips; also a lot more Skagit casts if I was in a typical cedar-lined bank with fishy water within 80ft of shore.

I'm ok with the relative position to the fish, although a more acute angle would prolong the hang down etc. But these are Gaspe' atlantics so by the tutelage of my friend Topher Browne my instincts tell me that this is an acceptable angle to keep the fly moving first in swing then in retreat from the edges of the power water. I would prefer the far bank over this spot but the picture might be a little deceiving as to how the current would hold the fly through the swing. It's not likely to stall with all the good tailout to the left of the fish and skating should be a breeze.

I would definitely riffle something over them a few times before resorting to a wet. I would opt for something that fishes well down current with the twin tufted calftail wings - mcdougal, waller waker, or a deerhair bodied version of the butterfly, etc. Or just a bomber.

Failing that and due to conditions and the surprising eyesight salmon have I would use a small dark fly with bright highlights like a picasse in a #8 or possibly a slightly sparse #6 to get ballast in the current.

Lastly before I left I would pass some of my west coast steelhead flies through the line just because :D

Good topic, Ann

juro 02-08-2005 06:28 AM

Ann -

I have to reiterate as I just re-read your post. I answered based on my preference and didn't provide and answer to your question.

Upriver Wind:

If the wind is upstream, you need to get the anchor upstream to prevent hooking yourself. This is because a cast from the right side made with the fly on the left crosses over and hooks you along the way. This is also true for the left/right.

Given that the wind is upstream, choose a cast with the anchor / fly placed upstream. The most intuitive is the single spey, which is an upriver anchor cast.

An easier cast for most is the snap-T or snap-C, which puts the fly on this angler's right before sweeping out the d-loop (backcast).

One of those two would be best for an upriver wind.

Downriver Wind:

In this case, putting the anchor to the right would let the hook blow into the body during the cast. Therefore the anchor / fly must stay on the left.

The easiest cast for most people to learn in this case would be the reverse double spey, although I would strongly suggest practicing left-handed from the start. It pays big dividends down the road.

Another than is fantastic for this case is the snake roll, which I would suggest learning with the left hand up as well. However with care it can be done reaching across the front of the body with the right hand up.

Details on these casts will be provided in our cast glossary over the next several weeks. Better yet, read Simon Gawesworth's new book and watch the Rio International Spey Casting video and/or Derek Brown's video for visual reinforcement of the written descriptions.

Of course it will be my pleasure to work these casts with you in person on the Gaspe' rivers :cool:

Willie Gunn 02-08-2005 06:34 AM

Looking at the photo there appears to be very little if any wind, using Scotland as a baseline. I would simply use a single spey as there would be less water disturbance. (and anyway I do not hold with all these snap,insert letter of choice casts)
Fly, depends on time of year--> water temp. Early and cold Willie Gunn obviously later in warmer weather and shrimp fly immitation.

Gardener 02-08-2005 07:05 AM

On relatively flat water like that, and in view of its extreme clarity and the bright sunlight, I'd be concerned about the disturbance that might be caused by the line.

To this end I'd certainly avoid the double spey or any of the other casts that require two moves. Being strongly left handed I instinctively favour the LH snake roll over the RH single spey, though the RH single makes less disturbance. The RH single spey also places whatever disturbance there is further away from the fish, and thus would be the better spey cast in these circumstances. Obviously wind direction (if any) comes into the equation, though.

But if I had adequate room behind, I'd be inclined to go for an overhead cast rather than any of the spey casts, wading somewhat deeper if necessary (which might improve the angle of presentation, too). An overhead cast would enable me to use a lighter line on the same rod, giving me a far more subtle and stealthy presentation than the rest of you with your fat spey lines!

I don't know about fly patterns for over there, but with clear water and bright sun I'd go for something small and not too bright. But I'd prefer to wait until the sun was off the water before starting to fish.

Willie Gunn 02-08-2005 07:14 AM


Originally Posted by Gardener
An overhead cast would enable me to use a lighter line on the same rod, giving me a far more subtle and stealthy presentation than the rest of you with your fat spey lines!


Wait till next week when you see the new range of Partridge lines you might reconsider that comment. I have a few for you to try, but some are proving difficult for me to aquire, I may have to resort with parting with some cash, but that is definately a last resort.

juro 02-08-2005 07:16 AM

Willie -

Exciting news!! I hope Ian is enjoying rewards of his hard work. I know we will enjoy the results.

Salar 33 02-08-2005 07:22 AM

1 Attachment(s)
First I move to this position. No spey casts at all. Never raise the rod above my head. Side cast keeping the fly moving at the same speed as the flow. Keep the rod tip as low as possible and the fly as slow as you are able. Let the line completely straighten down river, retrieve and move the tip of the rod behind me. In the gin clear water of the York a size 10 Tiger Ghost.

The water explodes with an early bright white beauty. Then I wake up.

Gardener 02-08-2005 07:35 AM


Originally Posted by Willie Gunn
Wait till next week when you see the new range of Partridge lines you might reconsider that comment. I have a few for you to try

Very much looking forward to that. As per your advice on the other board about contacting the gillie ahead to get advice, what last minute flies should I be tying this weekend? WG's presumably, but in what sizes?

I am hoping for a downstream wind next week. Not only will a sou-wester be warmer than a nor-easter, but it'd also mean I won't have to cast right-hand-up at Wester E.!

QuebecSporting 02-08-2005 08:05 AM


Nice rod and line!! :confused:

Ann :chuckle:

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