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-   -   Advice (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=19039)

grouseman 12-31-2004 05:55 AM

Advice
 
I have Rio Accelerator with tips line for my Sage 2-handed rod. The green tip which I think is type 6 weighs 150gr for the 10wt. Today I was fishing a run on the Muskegon that was 4-7 ft deep and with 60-70 ft casts I wasn't hitting bottom. I'm wanting to get deeper. Can you give me suggestions. I've read river reports from today of all kinds of steel being caught by the indie and c/d boys. Is anyone catching steelhead swinging flies in this colder weather? Thanks.

juro 12-31-2004 06:09 AM

My advice: Shorten up the head, use a more robust sinktip.

For 60-70ft casts you can go to a Rio Windcutter, Airflo Delta, or SA short head (cut) (54ft heads, 6ft leader, shoot 10ft of running line - pc of cake) with a 15ft type 8 tip and that will cast and bring the fly deeper. Or with the Rio Windcutter you can upsize the line to a higher line weight and remove the center section, creating a shorter "Skagit" style setup, using a section of T14 which is serious sinktip, and that should get you there.

Reason: the more compact the grains and diameter of the line pushing the tip, the heavier the tip can be.

If you need to go more than that you need to find different water to swing ;) ;)

note: if you are standing next to the chuck and duckers and indie boys you might not be in good swingwater anyway. You want to be able to cover water where the fly can be slowed by tension through the swing to pass in front of the fish where they are holding, including the hang down. In many spots where weight and indicators are effective the fish are 90 degrees to you in other words the path of the fly / hook is upriver and straight across in front of you instead of swung down and across with a nice s-l-o-w pass. If depth is so important, than the spot might not be the best as steelhead will move for a fly in the right circumstances and these are the ones where the swing is king. Find a stretch that you can cover with successive swings where you can apply tension on the line, slowing the fly through a slow swing, and hanging down in a likely spot for a grab as well. Then step through the whole run, systematically covering every fishy inch. I have found most indie / chuck and duckers to stay put in one spot, which is another thing that works against the swinger whose game is coverage.

.02

grouseman 12-31-2004 06:14 AM

What length leader/tippet? Do you weight the tippet? How about floating lines and longer leaders with weight? Thanks for your quick reply. It's 50f out right now!

BLACK FRANCIS 12-31-2004 06:46 AM

Juro is right on as usual. on the niagara i use t-14 in about a 12' hunk with four feet of 0x leader and a brass 1.5" tube. this gets down in about 10-14-ft, not on the bottom but where the fish can see it. the other method is a 15; mono leader and a 2" copper tube. this is not much fun to cast but works well in the very clear water where the tip is spooking fish. the thing to keepin mind is slow and deep, this should be your mantra as you fish each run. cast straight across and grease line or dead drift the fly to about the 45 deg mark make a big upstream mend and let the fly work slow and deep as possible across to your side let it hang for a few seconds and start over. keep working on them and you will find some willing fish, just try to make it as easy as possible for them to get the fly.

juro 12-31-2004 07:00 AM

Nick describes the presentation for deep winter fishing to a "T". (BTW - those pictures from the clave are nothing short of amazing and I will post a gallery as soon as I have time to build it, thanks!)

I never weight the tippet. For sinktip lines, use a short leader - 4-6'. For floating lines with metal tubes, use a long leader - as long as you can turn over with the line you're using. Don't forget to investigate Ed Ward's Skagit methods for a compromise between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grouseman
What length leader/tippet? Do you weight the tippet? How about floating lines and longer leaders with weight? Thanks for your quick reply. It's 50f out right now!


h2o 12-31-2004 08:14 AM

Black Francis (nick)

What are you attaching the T-14 too ? Running line ? Belly ? Between mono leader ?

By the way. The little trib down here is blown today. I fished it yesterday afternoon and picked up a few on Clouser tied Emerald Shiner and black & blue buggers. With the exception of one the fight was like that of a garden slug in the icey water, and someone should have set up a hot dog stand to feed all the anglers :Eyecrazy:

BLACK FRANCIS 01-01-2005 11:40 AM

H2O i have been mostly attaching the t-14 to the end of a full length windcutter. i don't like them cut back because i think the thicker line end is much harder to sink. recently i have also used a clouser line for the niagara because it turns over anything and all the casts are less than 50'.

Rambo 01-01-2005 07:22 PM

hey Grouseman they are taking them on the swing. I too fished the mo yesterday and I did end you hooking up with a nice male on the swing. I spend most of the day messing around with a new rod and with tuning a some new lines. a lot of us are using windcutters and removing tip 2 all together and using rio big boy 24ft heads in 200 300 and 400 grain sizes, the flow and water leval picked up yesterday so you would have needed a slightly larger tip. you could also try to use the sink tip compenastor with your rio 15 ft tips to get a bit of depth.
Erik

grouseman 01-01-2005 10:45 PM

Thanks Rambo. What is a sinktip compensator? Good to hear of your luck. I'll keep plugging away. I've left the eggs/nymphs in the truck to avoid temptation. Tommorrow looks like another promising day, temp predicted to the 40's. More sinktips on order.

Rambo 01-01-2005 11:35 PM

http://www.rioproducts.com/pages/flylines_prodpage.asp?product=21310&useMet=0#chart

depneding on how old your line is it most likely came with the compensator if you purchased it in the past 2 years. The Compensator is an intermediate sink section that ensures the fly stays down. as for leaders I am fishing between 3 and 5 feet half 25 lg maxima and half 12 lb Seguar floro. good luck out there
Rambo

grouseman 01-02-2005 08:30 AM

I bought it on ebay with the rod and reel, so I'm trying to figure out the various components.
What fly colors are you using? I caught a nice brown on a light yellow rabbit strip with white spey hackle on #5 AJ on the hang down. Will try again today for steel.

Rambo 01-02-2005 11:03 AM

colors
 
well I have been doing things a little diffrent this year. every fish I have caught has been on big flies really big flies. mostly big egg sucking leaches 4in to 6in long all black with chart head. You may want to also try olive and purple leaches. Sculpins 3in to 5 in long. look back a few weeks at the sculpin thread there is a bunch of good flies in there. I also have been throwing the circus peanut in olive, I am sure it would work in black as well. In the spring and summer and early fall white baitfish patterns work well as well. I am not saying that small and medium sized flies won't/aren't working but I have chosen not to throw them. I have been targeting extreemly aggressive fish. now that temps have dropped I may have to return to some smaller flies. I will post picts for you this afternoon of the flies I have been using. next time I am on that side of the state fishing I will shoot you a pm.
rambo


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