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-   -   Tight Loops (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=19038)

bluegillbob 12-30-2004 08:25 PM

Tight Loops
 
Hello All,

I was practicing my casting this afternoon, and I made some observations. Try these tips; they improved my casting.

1) With the line straight on the lawn (or water) make a quick backhaul while pulling the rod behind you.

2) When you feel the line "tug" (with the hand holding the the flyline) start the foward cast.

These 2 steps do two things : They increase line speed, and create tighter loops!

It helped me. I experimented. Try it.

fishingbum 12-31-2004 12:53 AM

the Double Haul, grasshoppa... very good. i've been practicing too and have been opening my casting stroke beyond the 10/2-o'clock positions with much success. i've also been letting the rod tip 'drift' on the backcast and it reduces the shock of the 60-70 feet of line shooting back. my stroke is now much more relaxed and less rigid and robotty.

juro 12-31-2004 07:17 AM

Good advice.

So in other words, bob said:

- use a haul to increase load in the rod during the backcast, resulting in more power and linespeed

- use proper timing (wait for the backcast to pull on the rod) before starting the forward cast

Both of these will certainly increase load in the rod and thus line speed.

However I would clarify that tight loops have less to do with hauling and timing than they do with other factors, to be specific the path of acceleration and the stopping-point relative to that path.

For instance, I can throw tiny loops with no hauling in either direction and virtually no effort, and very low line speed provided the momentum of the line (end to end) is traveling in a straight vector, and the rod tip stops very close to and just under that vector, voila - tight loop.

But I do not want to downplay your advice, it's very good advice indeed. Hauling and proper timing are both key to sufficient power in your casting stroke.

Per the 'tug' on the backcast - you might find it interesting to experiment with the amount of loop left in the line before you start forward. In some cases leaving a little bit of curl in the backcast before you begin the forward cast works in your favor, provided the acceleration is gradual to begin with (no shock) and there is adequate tension in the rod when it comes forward (absolutely no creep).

If you are getting turbulence in the cast especially as the leader unfolds out in front of you it could be caused by startup shock from a backcast that was allowed to recoil behind you, otherwise too sudden of an application of power, or a side-swipe in the stroke might do it as well.

Good topic.

FKrow 12-31-2004 06:32 PM

Juro,
I belive the "tug" on the backcast leads to problems,,,,,when you feel the line "tug" on the rod,,,it is too late,,,the line is already falling towards the ground and you have introduced "slack" into the backcast. A very straight line horizontal backcast is the most efficient position for the line to be when we start the forward cast. The instant the line is unrolled into a horizontal position it begins to fall.

The backcast should be in a horizontal "J" or candy cane shape when we begin the slow acceleration into the forward cast. If you hear the dreaded snap or pop of the leader,,,,you have accelerated into the forward cast too quickly with excessive force or power.

Regards,
Fred Krow

juro 01-01-2005 08:29 AM

Thanks Fred, in fact that is exactly the intent of my earlier suggestion to 'experiment' with the tug to Bob (below). At the point of discovery he's at currently it seemed words of encouragement to experiment would be more effective than words of correction.

In any case, great discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juro
But I do not want to downplay your advice, it's very good advice indeed. Hauling and proper timing are both key to sufficient power in your casting stroke.

Per the 'tug' on the backcast - you might find it interesting to experiment with the amount of loop left in the line before you start forward. In some cases leaving a little bit of curl in the backcast before you begin the forward cast works in your favor, provided the acceleration is gradual to begin with (no shock) and there is adequate tension in the rod when it comes forward (absolutely no creep).

If you are getting turbulence in the cast especially as the leader unfolds out in front of you it could be caused by startup shock from a backcast that was allowed to recoil behind you, otherwise too sudden of an application of power, or a side-swipe in the stroke might do it as well.

Good topic.


juro 01-02-2005 10:30 AM

I took advantage of the modest temps yesterday to feel out a little of what we are discussing. Interestingly, I have to retract a little of what I said before.

When casting a shorter line, leaving a little curl in the backcast works well to smooth out the cast particularly if the acceleration starts smooth and speeds up through the stroke as it should.

However, when airing out a lot of line, shooting some running line into the backcast, and casting the whole fly line it was much more effective to allow the energy in the backcast's loop to fully dissipate in a soft unraveling before reversing it into the forward stroke.

I found that when casting the long cast, the backcast unfurls gently as all that energy is dissipated from the line by the taper and the leader reaches a point of neutrality.

There is no 'tug' here, in fact it's a feeling of lightness as the energy dissipates, at which point a smooth acceleration can begin the strong forward cast.

Putting a clouser on the tippet would create a pronounced tug, but that would be a recoil due to terminal weight and not a function of the cast per se.

Fred, let's take some time to dissect this at Danbury.

FKrow 01-02-2005 09:50 PM

Juro,

I will attend Danbury all three days and one of my main interests is comparing notes on fly casting. I live in NW Connecticut and the driver is about 30 min.

I have experienced somewhat conflicting results when developing a line and rod combination,,,,,casting,,,,,without a fly on grass and when casting a waterlogged fly in the wind (always in my face it seems). Especially on the pick up from the water,,,,it has much more resistance than grass. We develope the ideal combination in practice then it is not quite correct on the water.

Regards,
FK

juro 01-02-2005 11:33 PM

Very good point, however I think a trout fly would be less than the yarn I had on the 5wt rod in the yard; but a striper fly would be much, much more than the yarn as I like to fish big flies.

I guess I don't tend to think quite so much about these details when the blitz is on so it will be a valuable experience to explore this with you at Danbury, I am really looking forward to it!

Jazzman 01-03-2005 03:04 PM

Hi Gents -- I'm planning on going on Sunday and would be pleased to meet any and all of you. Also, as a proud new Atlantis owner, would love to hook up and watch you guys cast a little. I've only seen Andrew from Tightlines cast the thing behind his shop and it was ... uh... humbling. I've muddled my way through with another two-hander since late summer, but I'd like to see some different strokes, especially with my newly acquired 1111.

FKrow 01-03-2005 07:22 PM

Juro,

The forcast is for good weather on Sat. (40's) and Sun (50's & showers) it should be fine for demo casting with the Atlantis. I purchased my CND rods in November and have little experience with long shooting heads. Looking forward to learning some new techniques.

Regards,
Fred Krow

juro 01-04-2005 06:49 AM

Great! Sounds like we will be able to have an Atlantis casting gathering there. I am looking forward to it.

grouseman 01-04-2005 06:25 PM

With river flowing right to left, casting (one or two-handed) with right hand, why does the fly tend to tail upstream?

FKrow 01-04-2005 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grouseman
With river flowing right to left, casting (one or two-handed) with right hand, why does the fly tend to tail upstream?

On the forward cast when you stop the rod,,,,you are twisting your hand to the right or torquing the rod in the direction the fly tails. This is sometimes difficult to correct if the muscle memory is established over a long time.

Try to exagerate the stop and observe if the fly tails a greater amount,,,,this should help focus on the cause.

I have a similar problem when tired and casting long distances with a single handed rods,,,,,, hooking to the left on long casts. If you can observe what you are doing that causes the problem,,,it will become easy to correct.

Regards,
FK

fcch 01-07-2005 01:37 PM

Fishingbum,

Quote:

i've been practicing too and have been opening my casting stroke beyond the 10/2-o'clock positions with much success.
I'm far from elegant when I cast and haven't "tried" to keep my rod between 10-2 for years. I open up my "stroke" 'lots as it gives me more time and line speed (I'll also single or double haul)

http://www.njflyfishing.com/photopos...01-150-med.jpg
Not pretty, but effective ... swinging for bruisers, Pool 23 Ste-Marguerite Rv June 2002

teflon_jones 01-13-2005 07:02 AM

What bluegillbob originally posted is a single haul cast, not a double haul. If it was a double haul, he would be pulling on the line again after he felt the tug of it straightening out in back of him.


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