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-   -   Hooks???? (http://www.flyfishingforum.com/flytalk4/showthread.php?t=18945)

Jamey McLeod 12-21-2004 10:49 AM

Hooks????
 
I have been tying my wets on Tiemco 200R's as of late. They are much cheaper, and the #4 is about perfect sizewise in my opinion for the patterns I am fishing, and they don't tear up the mouths on the little trout that I hit now and then like A.J.'s or sal/steel models do. I like the sloping bend of that style hook also. I bend the eye up a bit in the vise before tying. Thing is, I only seem to be getting a good hook set about half the time, compared to 80-90% of the time like it seemed I did before using this model hook.

Am I missing something here?

BLACK FRANCIS 12-21-2004 11:38 AM

i use 200r's for a particular pattern and have had great success with it as far as hookups go. my customers buy lots of them and i have had no complaints except they seem to break instead of opening up like aj's do on snags. i switched to 200r in #6 instead of aj's in #7 because it kept the price of the flies down, everything seems about the same except the ring, straight eye.

Jamey McLeod 12-21-2004 12:48 PM

I have broken a few trying to bend the eye up in the vise, but not on snags, I usually only fish 8lb Max. green though. I can get 100 of them for $15.00, guess its worth breaking a few for 15cents a piece though.

flytyer 12-21-2004 04:05 PM

Why bother bending the eye up? A straight eyed hook, like the 200R, has the best hooking angle and the best hook holding (although a circle hook has the best holding ability of any hook, it is not the easiest to get a good hook set on) combination. Perhaps the reason you are experiencing more fish coming unglued has to do with changing the hook holding ability of the 200R by bending the eye up?

I've also got to say that I've always felt it was false economy to buy hooks on the basis of lower price. One is always better off buying hooks made for the purpose he is using the hook for and buying the best quality available, and if that means paying $45.00/100 instead of $15.00/100, it is no big deal. Instead of $0.15/hook you pay $0.45/hook a whole $0.30 cents more. The amount of time the average person spends tying a salmon/steelhead fly makes the $0.30 additional cost mute because his time is worth more than $0.30 per fly. If you break the cost down, you have $3.60/dozen ($0.30x12=$3.60) additional cost with the AJ spey hooks compared to the Tiempco 200R and most average/casual tyers don't tie a dozen salmon/steelhead flies in an hour, about $0.15 cents in other materials (unless you use jungle cock, bronze mallard, speckled bustard, etc. which all increase the material cost per fly pretty quickly). Also, very few people use up or lose 100 flies of a single size in a season, so the price difference/year of fishing really isn't as much as it seems on its face.

I use AJ spey hooks, Veverka hooks, AJ steelhead irons, Daiichi 2441 and 2421 hooks all the time, including on those I tie commercially for resale by fly shops. I never worry about the slight extra cost, and don't charge extra because I use more expensive hooks. All of us spend a lot more on rods, lines, reels, tying materials and tying tools than we spend on hooks, so why not get the best?

peter-s-c 12-21-2004 04:08 PM

If you're looking for a straight eye hook with an AJ bend for smaller wets, take a look at the Kamasan B220 Black Nymph hook -- very nice. A high quality hook at not too steep a price.

Gillie 12-21-2004 05:33 PM

Similair to the 200R and the Kamasan B220 is the Daiichi 2151. Although I don't like it as much in the bigger sizes I do use it for size 10 and 8 wets for ginclear winter water. It is a very nice hook for Valk's Petite series.

Gillie

flytyer 12-21-2004 08:58 PM

Gillie,

The Daiichi 2151 is a great hook, and many folks here on the west coast are using it without realizing it because Alec Jackson markets it as his Alec Jackson Steelhead Hook. I think it is far superior to the 200R because it is heavier wire, although it does cost more than the 200R, about $32.00/100.

Brian Simonseth 12-21-2004 09:33 PM

Russ is right about 2151, beens using them for years now.

BLACK FRANCIS 12-21-2004 10:01 PM

Flytyer
i don't believe the 200r is an inferior hook in any way. i am making a simple bugger type pattern with them and passing the savings on to the customer. they love them. i use them myself and don't think twice. btw i use thousands of daiichi 2051 and 2441 every year for the appropriate patterns. both are top quality hooks.

flytyer 12-21-2004 11:07 PM

Black Francis,

You are right, the Tiempco 200R is not an inferior hook, but it is a hook that was not designed for spey or salmon/steelhead flies, not is it a hook that was designed to hook and land fish of over 10lbs. I was responding to what others appeared to be justifying using it because it was cheaper than the AJ spey hook to tie flies not appropriate to the hook. It is a terrific hook for the trout flies it was designed for, but like you alluded, it wasn't designed, nor intended to be used as a substitute for salmon/steelhead hooks.

For Woolly Buggers, I prefer the Daiichi 2220 over the 200R because it has a longer, straight shank, round bend, and heavier wire than the 200R. To my eye, the longer shank and round bend of the Daiichi 2220 works better on buggers or bugger type flies because the body then ballances the long marabou tail. And the 2220 cost about the same as the Tiempco 200R.

BLACK FRANCIS 12-22-2004 06:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
ok here is the pattern we are talking about. the 200r is the right match for this pattern with a bead because some won't go over the return wire. i agree that the 2220 is THE wooley bugger hook, but this is a woody bugger. tell me that's not a good match of hook to pattern.

Jamey McLeod 12-22-2004 07:28 AM

small trout
 
I had also mentioned that I started using them because the AJ's were tearing up the mouths of the small trout(10-12in) that I have been catching in the Muskegon when swinging flies. This may not be a big deal to some, but it bugs me. I have landed fish over 10lbs on the 200R's with no problem. It just seems like they come unhooked more than with other model hooks. It maybe winter fish? This is the first year I have swung flies this late in the year. As of late I have been tying a dozen or 2 flies a night, its winter in west MI, not much to do after 6pm or so. I am somewhat new to this style of fishing, it could be something I am doing, who knows. I am sticking with them for now though.

Gillie 12-22-2004 08:26 AM

Flytyer,

I did not realize that the 2151 was marketed as an Alec Jacson Steelhead Hook. I have only seen the ALec Jackson Spey Hook. I assume it is an identical straight eye hook just marketed different ?

Nick and Jamey,

I used to use the 200R when I was still fishing nymphs on the GL. I too have found it to be a very capable hook on the GL. However, I agree that it is not designed to be a primary steelhead and salmon hook. I would not fish it in the PNW and I think that is some of the difference between you and Flytyer. The rivers are much larger and the potential for much larger fish exists on many of the PNW rivers. If I wanted the features of that hook but added strength I would stick with the 2151.

Jamey I'd be curious if you tried the 2151 to see if you have the same problem. They should not tear up the smaller fish mouth and will give you a more traditional salmon hook.

I have to admit that part of my bias is I prefer a black finish to my hooks, they just look cool :cool: .

Gillie

removed_by_request 12-22-2004 09:03 AM

I have been using the Partridge CS14/1 Salar.

Pretty neat hook, very strong and comes in black, gold, and nickel. 5's and 7's seem to fit most GL ties.

Gillie 12-22-2004 10:07 AM

The Salar does look like a very interesting hook. I haven't tried it yet though. I guess I'll have to give it a try.

Gillie


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