|11-08-2003 09:26 PM|
I know all the times I was back that way (which thanks to my ex, was quite a bit) I know I saw alot of rivers, but most seemed to be clearer then ours. Even the bigger one's. Only time they muddied up was hard rains or if they had clay based rivers (Chattahoochee comes to mind). I know some of the rivers I fished I couldn't tell really how deep they truly were, since they were so clear, and that was in the winter. I nymphed alot, and had alot of success that way. But, I have an OP mindset, heavy sinktips and big flies. But, am gonna try and do some McMillan styled fishing this winter, when the shoulder is up to it.
|11-08-2003 08:55 PM|
The Genesee dmas talks about is the size of the Hoh with deeper holes. It is a very nice river. I used to drive along it to visit relatives who lived in Rochester, NY before I moved west 25 years ago. Never did fish it though if I still lived in Pennsylvania, it would be a place I'd fish.
|11-08-2003 07:35 PM|
One of these days I'll get out there. I may get a chance to fish the Deschutes next august or early sept on my way to Alaska. Hope it pans out.
|11-08-2003 02:37 AM|
Don't bring Teeny up. I know he has fans. But we have a name for guys like him in circles up here. I won't go any farther then that. But some of the stuff I've seen were in the spring/summer/late fall where we use techs like that. I don't use eggs, but nymphs and the like for summerrun fishing. But, use alot of leeches and "summer speys" for my summer fishing too. But some of the videos I've seen of him nymphing (on flyfish TV and the likes) were great lakes fishing. But I have only seen 3 of them on different TV shows, but all 3 he was back there (hard to sight fish the winter here when you have 2' visibillity max with polaroids on). Most of the rivers I fish have similar pools you're talking about, but even deeper (most of the big steelhead here will lay in king holes, roughly 8-20' deep, where I've pulled most of my over 20's out of). But, I agree, I use gear alot during the winter. Most holes I can dredge easier swinging bent metal for them there (gotta love spoons, and knowing how to drift them).
But, wasn't trying to jump on you. Just that I've fished both. And I've seen first hand how my techs just didn't cut it, but the moment I switched up, I was into fish.
|11-07-2003 08:34 PM|
Steelheader. No doubt, normally smaller patterns will take more fish in the Great Lakes and anybody starting out should go that route. High sticking eggs/nymphs is the way to go under most conditions. Especially in the winter...I agree. I wasn't even really addressing the initial post or your post for that matter. What I was reacting to was the idea that west coast patterns/techniques are "too traditional" for the great lakes to be consistently succesful. Bottom line is that most of my fishing in the Fall / Sping is done with a two handed rod swinging traditional flies. I fish leeches on occasion, but I'll just as often fish other flies that would easily be recognized as west coast standards. I tend to fish bigger flies in bigger water. Now I know big is a relative term. I don't fish the really large irons (say anything bigger than a 3 in an AJ or say a 2 in a 7999). I'll go to a tube fly if I feel I need something bigger than that. I fish the Genesee and Salmon rivers mostly. Genny is my home river and is some big water (I guess not Thomspon big) but Great lakes big and it ranges from a beautiful deep green color to a greenish/brown mess when it's fishin. I'm normally dredging 6-8 foot deep runs with a tip and a 2-4 foot tippet of 12lb maxima green. Normally I'm looking at 75-85 foot casts. Not west coast far I know but farther than a roll cast. IMO, some of the runs I fish need to be fished either traditionally or with gear. Yes this is a very specific set of conditions, not the great lakes norm but they exist.
The Niagra is huge. I don't fish there a bunch but it is massive and indimidating and guys fish that with very large streamer patterns.
In my opinion, the only way to fish the Cattaragaus is swinging. Lots of agressive wild fish and it's classic steelhead water.
My relatively limited dry fly experience has been on the lake erie tribs in the fall or spring with water temps above say lower 40's. It's been wakeing overgrown stimulators or smallish bombers etc. in tailouts. I generally have had no probems raising fish, however I admit that those tribs get very substantial runs out of that lake and eventually you are going to stumble onto a player.
However, all this said I'll still use egg patterns or nymphs if I think the conditions dictate it.
BTW....you are right, all I know about west coast steelhead is from what I have read from Comb's etc. But I've been fishin for "our"steelhead for a long time and my gut tells me they are the same fish. Conditions dictate how you approach them not necessarily geographic location. When I watch Jim Teeny's Sci Anglers video and he's sight fishin with nymphs, if I didn't know better, it looks an aweful lot like he could be fishing a Great Lakes trib. Or is he?
|11-07-2003 01:03 PM|
Well, I'll keep this simple
I could go on a long story on this one. But, there is a big difference dmas. I'm not sure how many times you've fished here in the NW, but I fished the GL's with confidence and in "non crowded" conditions and had zero luck. But funny how instantly I had a hookup and kept catching fish when I switched over. I did not only fish in one spot mind you. I've made probably a good 50+ trips fishing the GL's throughout most of the GL states and rivers throughout (I have relatives strewn all over the area, but mostly in MN). Plus, the reverse is true. Some of those techniques would never work here, except in summer conditions (or drought conditions during winter). There is always a chance to catch fish on bigger flies anywhere. I've caught a small 12" rainbow swinging a size 2/0 "Hoh special" on the upper Hoh. So, there's always a chance. But, if I'm going to work a slot, especially remote, I'll use the most appropriate fly for the area. Now, skating flies. Well, depends on when you're talking about skating. If you're talking winter, then that's a much different beast all together if you constantly get them to rise in the winter time to dries. I've only met a couple (quite literally TWO) who have done this feat, and one was an over 20# steelhead at that. But for most part, you get alot of nose bumps, but no hits. During the summer, well, that's a different thing all together. But during the summer I use more naturals anyways, and SMALLER too. Most of the techs that I see used during the winter in the GL's were somewhat similar to what I see (and myself do as well) here in the NW for summerruns. So, we can agree to disagree. I've done most of my fishing in Ohio and MI, with some fishing in other states as well in the GL's. But I've found that my flyboxes were rendered useless the times I was there. At least, in the sizes I fished them at. Now, if I dropped down to maybe a size 6 or under, that may be different. But not up into my size 2 up flies.
Lastly, leeches are a different beast too. Can't bring those up. Most rivers (including our coastal glacial fed ones here ) have leeches in them. They are a food source, and well be fed upon. I've used some big assed leeches fishing for trout in New Jersey on the Penn. border. 3-4" for small browns and brook trout. So, that's a different beast. They'll open up and eat those readily. So leeches can't be accounted for in the "size mix" since it's an actual food source of real size (have seen leeches that big, if not bigger).
But, we can agree to disagree. You've fished them longer (like I said, I've only made about 50 or so fishing trips to the GL). But am basing off what I've seen and what has put fish on the bank for me. Since you yourself said that the flies you're using won't put the double digits on, which I assume you meant as just catching alot period. I assume the person above was looking for most productive flies. Especially if they are new to the sport. You want to give them the best opportunity to catch, not what has caught for you, but in limitated circumstances. I know I had quite a few high fish days, almost doubles using the smaller flies. And I'm someone who only came there during the weekends during fishing season for a few years. Figured, his best bet then beating the water with a bigger fly and only getting the few select. Always best to put someone new into a more productive atmosphere first, then let them go the way they want after that. If they want to try swinging bigger NW style flies, then that's their call afterwards.
|11-05-2003 08:25 PM|
The great lakes offer many oppourtunities to succesfully take steelhead, with traditional west coast steelheading flies and techniques and there are more guys than you think out there doing just that. Sure if you want to get after these fish under the crowded conditions in skinny water you are likely going to have to go to the light tippet small nymph/egg route to maximize sucess, but I would argue that this is no different than anywhere else that you will find steelhead. I have personally landed Great Lakes steelhead on skated dry flies and routinely take fish on 4 inch leech tube patterns. To sterotype a region the size of the great lakes by saying that small flies are the best option for every situtation is silly. Steelhead are steelhead and the west coast fish on some rivers see as many (if not more) real salmon eggs and aquatic insects floating by them as anyGreat lakes fish does. It's not like a 15lb fish leaves the big water and it's abundant baitfish to feed on salmon eggs and scuds anyway. They are in the rivers because they are programmed to be there. The absolute key to getting these fish with traditional flies is to fish the right conditions...and they exist. Heck we have had steel in many of our rivers for weeks and the water temps in most streams haven't even approached the 40's yet. Mid Feb with air temps in the teens and anchor ice in the river...yeah leave the two hander home but this time of year there is no need to chuck and duck unless you choose to. You may not get your double digit days but we have a big problem with inflated expectations out here anyway. But thats another story.
|11-05-2003 09:42 AM|
Yeah, the Light & Humphey book does have a PNW 'slant', though several of the featured patterns have some Atlantic roots - such as the Blue Charm, Jock Scott, et al.
As a beginning tyer, the appeal of the book for me was it's detailed step-by-step tying instructions - many of which 'cross-over' to other patterns you'll eventually tie.
Like I said, it's a bit dated...but old is sometimes good! (grin)
|10-31-2003 08:40 AM|
Steelheader hit the nail on the head...
The food sources in the Great Lakes and tribs are different than the PNW. Yes, we can learn a lot from our PNW brethern, but for a learning procedure, if you are a GL fisherman, do as the successful fishermen do in the specific area...... it works. That's the BEST advice I can give.
Also, stream conditions are smaller, shallower streams.
Don't fight it, guys - do what catches fish.
|10-31-2003 01:32 AM|
I did alot of GL fishing when I was married. My ex worked for NW airlines, so flew back to see friends in Michigan and Ohio alot. So did some fishing. Will say this.
I used to bring my flyboxes for steelhead here. Mind you, this was pre internet. I was told by phone to bring my steelhead gear and flies to use when I showed up since fish were running. I had a virtually skunked trip using my NW gear. But, did some borrowing of local flies and started catching immediately. I had my OlyPen flies. Lots tied up on 1/0's and the likes. Some smaller, but no smaller then a size 2 with me (since it was winter time). I thoroughly worked my flies. So wasn't holding back and was fishing with confidence. But, no luck at all until I switched to smaller flies. BUT, the rivers were nearly at our summer conditions when I fished there.
|10-30-2003 07:55 PM|
Re: Re: GL Steelhead Patterns
|10-30-2003 03:29 PM|
Clear PNW rivers
There are times that the NW rivers need small flies too. The Snake and Clearwater have a number of fishermen that use quite small flies. We don't all use "shock and awe" of the Intruder.
|10-30-2003 10:07 AM|
Re: GL Steelhead Patterns
I'd argue that it's not the fish's preference but the conditions under which the GL fish are sought, cold hard midwest winter verses springtime in the cascades and olympics. That and the fact that trib fishermen like different and smaller flies, which is often of equal influence in popularization of flies.
Your thoughts on that philosophy?
|10-30-2003 09:34 AM|
Is that book more regionally oriented - PNW ?
|10-29-2003 06:32 PM|
|SDHflyfisher||thanks for your input|
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