|09-30-2003 10:48 AM|
OK, my mistake! Looks like we're throwing the same grains afterall.
In striper land if the fish are following you strip right to the leader knot, which make the short heads more attractive because they're easy to roll out. In fact while forming the first roll cast, I use the grip of the water to hold the leader while I slip about 10-15 feet of the head back out just coming back to the firing position, then roll the other 15 feet out easily. Before it sinks, pick it up into the shooting backcast and fire forward for distance in one motion. Takes about 3.5 seconds to complete.
In any case you're pioneering out there with those setups and I'm very interested in your progress, definitly keep me posted!
BTW - are you going to go for those salter steelies on Whidbey this winter too?
|09-30-2003 10:35 AM|
Yeah I caught the head weight breakdowns. I only toss in the 400 to 500 grain area on a 34 to 36 foot head. 24 to 26 feet if I'm not using my 10' 100 grain middle section. I just can't imagine 600 to 800 unless I was fishing really deep off some rocky coast line. I also had noticed that instead of bringing the head right up to the tip of the rod, if I leave a couple feet of running line that it does fly a little better. I was going to try and keep extending that distance out to see what would happen. I just kinda thought it was taboo to leave a lot of running line out past the tip.
|09-30-2003 10:02 AM|
(drool) I would love to watch that video, especially once old man winter sets up for 6 months around here.
But I have to ask "did you happen to catch the grains discussion I posted?" The 11x11 casts a real 11/12, in other words a line that is lighter than a spey line in 7 or 8wt! Usually around 400-500 grains over 30 feet whereas a 7/8 midspey weighs 560 grains. I would assume that the lines you are throwing are 800 grains or more, no?
Once you tune your motion into the action of the rod, based on a tournament overhand taper, less is more. When I show people how to use it, I show them how to throw the minimal energy possible to make a loop, then add just a little kick. That's about all it takes to throw 80ft with a single backcast.
Now shoot a little running line into the backcast, stay relaxed, and keep the loop in the "lane" in both directions. Punch it only slightly more than the 80 ft cast - that's about 100-120 feet if all goes well, and with a single backcast.
You couldn't break this rod casting 100+ feet all day in a relaxed manner with a true 11/12wt line that is by the way lighter than a 7/8 spey line! The thing is you don't have to ride this rod hard and put it away wet to reach the distances of over 100' consistently, you just have to keep the driver in the lane on both sides and let it fly.
I will have to send one out or come out in person to do some beach clavin' with the gang if I can swing it.
|09-30-2003 09:46 AM|
"Your fly spends a lot longer in the water with a beach rod."
This has been the crux of my two handing the salt. My striping arm can be hurting more than my back with this casting. My intensions for the Salar are strictly Steeleheading with a big belly line on the rivers. I may pervert the Skagit special into double duty on the salt and river. Your salt rods just seem a little short and very stout. 11x11, what the hell were you thinking? Te he, te he, probably what I'm thinking. Anyway, I'd have to try one of the shorter surf rods you are talking about in the salt and I tell ya, I wouldn't be very nice. After throwing 400 and 500 grain heads off the beach, I've developed this little Steve Choate like power forearm thrust thing. That little cast is the reason why I'm waiting for both my Loop rods to be replaced. I've learned this beach casting myself by raiding the east coast sites and reading what they do for striper. I did this on 14 and 15 foot rods, so I've developed a slight preference for a longer beach rod. But with the IM8 blank on a 11' 11 wt surf rod, who knows. I would prefer 12 or 13 feet, but if it works for me then it would be the only rod I use in the salt for that kind of casting and save the wear on the Skagit or Salar. Right now, if I go out on the salt I use my St Croix because I wouldn't mind seeing it in pieces floating in the water in front of me. I had been using my old Sage 10150, but it is a classic and George Cook taught me to Spey cast with it so it holds a lot of sentimental value and I don't want to break it. That is why I am praying that CND's beach rod is the answer to my salt question.
I would love to hook up with you if you come out to Puget sound. There are a lot of aspects to the beach casting technique that I'm sure I could learn. When I'm shooting 120 plus feet of fly line, getting my leader and fly to turn over isn't always consistent. I've never seen anybody do what I do on the salt over the last year, so I don't have anyone's example to follow. It would be nice to have some footage of our style of overhead casting from the beach in the video section here with a big fat Silver hitting the fly.
|09-30-2003 09:26 AM|
I don't fish conventional at all. I've shown cape cod tourists once or twice how-to if they offer to help me pay the rent, but those poppers are probably worth a mint, you should hold on to them!
Send striblue a pic, he's quite a collector.
I am hot for roosterfish on the new rods. It's a quest I will fulfill someday.
|09-30-2003 09:19 AM|
Hey Juro. I found, and still find the 9126-3 a great surf rod (and a great chum stick since moving up here). Unless the surf is truly crazy, I stick as much rod as I can under the water whether fishing a single hand or double hand rod, so the bounce isn't really a problem. Better fly contact too.
As to handles, having grown up fishing stripers conventional and fly, I will make the following bold *ss statement: rods intended for surf fishing, and in fact, rods intended for big salt fishing should have FOAM handles!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the consumer won't accept it, but I for one would pay a surcharge to get such a handle on a quality saltwater rod! hint hint
Do you fish conventional? I have some 8 inch pencil poppers lying around. I'm talking original wood, handpainted, not cotton cordell plastic ones. Maybe next time you're out I can get them to you if you have room in your checked bag.
P.S. I don't chase roosters. When I see them I cast to them, but the big ones are possibly the most frustrating fish on the planet in terms of peeling off 3 inches from the fly after racing in from 10 yards away :eyecrazy: By the way, this approach has both kept me more relaxed, and gotten me quite a few roosters
|09-30-2003 05:24 AM|
Sounds like fun, down in the sun... I will be shivering and jealous again this winter!
I own that Sage 9126-3 too have landed fish in that class on Nauset with it so I can relate! What did you think of it as a surf rod? I thought it was super nice but the handle was meant for euro-style/spey where and the softness in the blank felt a little bouncy to me while stripping flies. Probably the best commercially available option for two-handed surf work back then. The high price tag restricted it's adoption by striper guys and it's been discontinued since. Great stick on the river though!
I still believe true overhand rods are better at the task of somewhat violently reversing the direction of a cast 180 degrees in mid air. Also the 10'9" prototype in the hands is hard to distinguish from a single hander while stripping line. The IM8 graphite has a lot of guts to move fish and I believe the 11x11 can take a 50 pound bass, I just need to find one!
Hey maybe I can send one for you to test in Mexico! Do you have roosterfish where you winter?
|09-29-2003 09:08 PM|
"Philster, I think the 7/8 10' 7" two-handed beach rod will be a very nice searun cutt rod, but quite frankly the 9/10 is more suited to coho conditions and sizes and the 11wt is really not out of the question for hooknoses at all. "
Juro, I have 4 years of experience with Northern California beach/jetty Striped Bass on a Sage 9126-3 (30 years total striper experience). Big fish was a 28 pounder on that stick, and as you know from your guiding, 28 pounds in a pounding west coast surf is much different than 28 pounds in the flats or river mouths :eyecrazy:
I will be very interested to see the 7/8 rod! Shad, smallmouth... Man, the possibilities are ENDLESS!
We all fish differently, which is why it's so much fun to fish with new people. Learn something everytime. But I have to say, when I think 11 weight I'm thinking mexico yellowfin tuna, not coho. In fact I'll be thinking about mexico yellowfin tuna all winter as I swing my 15 foot... Regulations willing that is
|09-29-2003 04:19 PM|
Mattzoid, that's hilarious! :hehe: You should've pulled a blazing saddles... "s'cuze me while I whip it out".
The two I am supposed to have shipped to me today (will take a day or two to arrive) are the 11' 11/12 wt and the 10' 9" 9/10. The Puget Sound rod is a 7/8 and will follow soon, I will find out and post expected dates. After a quick test I will ship out to you guys for testing, or better yet maybe there will be a cheap fare so I can come out and try it with you!
The CNF-1099A should be a decent coho rod, as you know with two hands 300-350 grains is nothing! That's 200-300 grains LESS than a 6/7 Spey line!
Philster, I think the 7/8 10' 7" two-handed beach rod will be a very nice searun cutt rod, but quite frankly the 9/10 is more suited to coho conditions and sizes and the 11wt is really not out of the question for hooknoses at all.
11/12wt standard line == approx 500 grains, still 100 grains LESS than most 7wt spey lines!
The thing is those grains are concentrated in a well- behaved 30' weight forward section and with a good shooting line... ZOOM.
So far I've found that although distance is there for you, it's not the only advantage. Too much running line is hard to manage in a basket or even worse without one. I like a consistent low-effort 100 foot cast best when having to strip retrieve the fly between casts. With the bigger rods, this is as simple as a single backcast and a good straight poke of the rod.
Another huge advantage is casting in a hard crossing wind, just reverse-overhand it out there. It's even easier than a reverse spey! Or left-up, which with two hands is quite easy. Many are already used to casting backwards, but it's been nice to keep my eyes on the prize especially when sight fishing the flats.
Still another is for fighting those big chinook, once we all figure out what the heck they'll hit. The lower handle provides significant leverage advantage for fighting very large fish when it's on the hip.
Sneak in to Hoodsport on a weekday and battle some huge chum with the beach rods, that would be a good field test!
I used to fish Westport a lot in the fall, those big Satsop coho will put a bend in the 11x11 easy. Sometimes you just need the big heads to put a hooknose fly out there where the action is, I see a fit for all models in the saltchuck.
I'll bet those short spey lines really cast nice with an underhand spey motion as well, like Simon's new Scandinavian heads - they will do double duty.
The biggest advantage, in my opinion, is simply this:
Your fly spends a lot longer in the water with a beach rod.
Why? It takes about 3.5 seconds to throw 100 feet when you roll out the head, make a single backcast, then shoot. In a moderate current in a deep fishy seam it can take you as long as 30 seconds to retrieve a 100 ft cast to the butt. That's almost a 10:1 ratio of casting time to fishing time!
The explosion of coastal flyfishing in the northwest is really awesome to see. In the early years of my tenure there, it was a rare sight to see anyone flyfishing in the saltchuck. Now there is a strong, thriving community of salty flyfishers, great stuff! I genuinely hope this rod brings a new tool to this community, if not we'll keep trying till we get it right!
|09-29-2003 03:38 PM|
My Sage 5120 is what I use on Cutts in the salt or N F Stilly, the Yak for trout and Dry Falls like places.
The Salar will be my primary big river rod and a way to graduate to bigger belly lines.
I'm thinking about the Skagit specialist for the beach with the heads I use. It will also fill the gap on the river in the 13 foot mark that I will be using spey or shooting head line.
I also can not wait to try the Puget Sound Specialist. Unfortunately, I know I'll end up buying that one too and be my own CND rep where ever I go. I'll be my own Spey/Two-handed Clave too. :hehe:
Speaking of heads, I went down to the local drug paraphernalia store and bought a scale that measures in grains. Did you know that 400 grain heads actually weigh 400 grains. I had been using the postal scale at work and had +/- 75 gns on my previous measurements. The guy freaked out when I whipped out some of my experimental heads to measure. I think he thought I was going to pull out a big fat green bud to measure. Bet I'm the only guy that buys stuff in there for its legal intended use, weighing fly line.
|09-29-2003 02:52 PM|
Matt you should just wait for juros new two handed beach rods he has coming out. He is working on one specially designed for puget sound.
I think they are just under 11' and if distance is what you are after with proper technique you can throw the whole line and more with these.
Plus when you stick em under your arm for a 2 hand retrieve you are back at a 9ft rod. With longer rods like the salar the tip reverb is gonna suck when stripping.
I for one cannot wait to see what Juro comes up with since he lives and breathes salt water fishing. They are gonna be sweeet.
Hurry up Juro!
|09-29-2003 02:32 PM|
I don't want to throw water on the party, but 15 feet of 9/10/11 for the poor little cuttys and 6 pound silvers on the beach:eyecrazy: I've thrown nothing but a 9.5 foot six weight, and have yet to feel undergunned or outfished.
I've cast the Salar, and frankly, I love it. Personal preference issue, but the Thompson is too much stick for me. Can't wait to see the steelhead and the skagit. If they live up to their billing, which is same league as the Salar and Thompson, but with distinct personalities, it's going to take months of test casting to choose one!
|09-29-2003 02:08 PM|
And I can put your name on it.
Emaill me offline at firstname.lastname@example.org
|09-29-2003 01:43 PM|
I'm getting both for the beach and the river. Do you have a virgin Salar in the shop right now?
|09-29-2003 01:13 PM|
The Salar is currently available. I could have sent you home with one. I still think you should try the 13'8 before you decide.
We should have one before the end of October.
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