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Great Lakes Steelhead & Salmon Amazing "Inland ocean" fisheries

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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-08-2003 12:27 PM
Lipripper "Please don't suggest that a guide I'd recommend would fish gravel. It's just plain rude, wrong and insulting."

Don't get your shorts all in a bunch. What I suggested is that the majority of guides in Michigan fish gravel. And yes, I would say that the "big name" guides (some of the ones on your list?) do it too. Yep, there are exceptions and God bless em. But, let's at least face the facts. 1) Guides set the example 2) Most Michigan guides fish gravel 3) Other anglers are gonna do what the guides are doing until they know any different because it produces results. Not, the kind that you and I want...but, results none the less.

"You picked the wrong person to say that to in a big way." Please...idle threats?....on the net?

LR
01-08-2003 08:57 AM
West Mich We all know most Steelheaders in the GL fish gravel. My point is that true sportsmen don't - and should "lead others by example". Please don't suggest that a guide I'd recommend would fish gravel. It's just plain rude, wrong and insulting. You picked the wrong person to say that to in a big way. When any of you actually want to catch Steelhead - in a challenging sporting manner, or share good truthful information, let me know. Until then, I think I'll just let you believe whatever you want. Happy Casting.
01-07-2003 02:02 PM
Lipripper "As far as fishing gravel goes, why would a sportsman fish anywhere near bedding fish? Bedding fish make poor angling targets, day or night. Good fishermen leave gravel alone and lead others by example."

That's just plain silly. You and I both know who does it and why. Probably some of the people on your list of good guides do it with great regularity. Who's kiddin who here eh? If you consider yourself an angler who doesn't fish to gravel (as I do) then we are in the minority in this state my friend. Take a good look around.

I also know someone who just picked up his forest service permit for right around 20k as well.

LR
01-07-2003 11:38 AM
removed_by_request 20-40K? Get real. Do the math.

Won't mention the Baldwin giudes name, he told me his chit (which he bought from someone else) cost him 20k. I could not get one from the USFS etc. This is the permit that allows you to guide on the PM.

As far as fishing gravel goes, why would a sportsman fish anywhere near bedding fish? Bedding fish make poor angling targets, day or night. Good fishermen leave gravel alone and lead others by example.

Then there must be a ton of bad fisherman in the PM "holy water" everytime I go I see guys fishing to bedded fish and ignoring the deep dark water behind them. Please do not say they are from out of state, far too many Mi. plates in the parking lot to prove that.
01-07-2003 10:18 AM
West Mich The PM has well over 100 miles of fishable water. I believe the flies only section has about 7 and Hal, in case you haven't heard, it is a no-kill section. As you mention, the upper branches and lower sections have plenty of spawning gravel for steelhead. The upper sections are closed Oct - end of April and the lower section has far less pressure than the flies only. There's plenty of good water if you know the river.

FWIW - The 2 canoe liveries each get 250 daily permits from the NFS and 100 are left for private individuals. Those are weekend numbers - they're less during the week. Permits are only needed from mid May to mid September and you can reserve them ahead. Boats are only allowed from 9AM-6PM which leaves good trout fishing before and after.

Guide Permits for the PM are another story. Permit numbers are prominently displayed on the boats of licensed guides. Not the same as watercraft numbers. There are only about 40 permits issued. Contrary to what some of you seem to think, there isn't a guide who's going to risk losing his permit by encroaching on other folks fishing and having someone complain to the NFS. The "guides" who might piss you off are likely unlicensed as well as unprofessional. These days, anyone who owns a driftboat seems to pass themselves off as a "guide". In addition to Guide Permits on the PM, all guides must also have a license to operate anywhere in Michigan. You'll learn from a good guide. Always hire one by someone else's recommendation. Email me if you're interested.

20-40K? Get real. Do the math.

As far as fishing gravel goes, why would a sportsman fish anywhere near bedding fish? Bedding fish make poor angling targets, day or night. Good fishermen leave gravel alone and lead others by example.
01-05-2003 05:49 PM
removed_by_request Both interesting responses, i am suprised this is all we got.

Two things;
Guide boats need to be licensed on Mi. rivers. They are not handing out new chits. The number has stayed the same for years. Which makes that chit worth big $$$$$$. Heard rumor of guys paying 20-40k for theirs.

As to night fishing/no kill. They say the numbers are up, but who says this local guides/tackle shops? Also if you banned night fishing wouldn't it stand to reason that there would be more fish.
My reasoning is that redds would not be trompped on in the dark and fish would do their thing unmolested. It may mean more fish in the long run.

Just 2 more thoughts to chew on.
01-05-2003 12:30 AM
Lipripper Good topic.
In my opinion the best answer to, "when do they spawn" is "whenever they can". The Salmon seem to be doing pretty well on that river as far as natural reproduction is concerned even WITH all of the blatant snagging that goes on August-October....every year. It's kind of baffling really. Here's what I wanna know. If it was to become limited to daylight fishing only....when does the day begin/end? Who would enforce the policy? The answer to our problems isn't more rules/regs/enforcement. It's angler education! Most of the "problem" folks just don't seem to get it. They have no respect for the resource and in turn don't really care what happens to it.....Whether they are Billy Joe Spin Guy or Thabian the Flycast Master. Educate the masses and teach people how to be good stewards and you will get a more enjoyable resource. I believe it begins with the guides. What happened to paying someone to teach you something instead of paying someone to put you into fish...no matter what it takes. I have taken my fair share of guided trips (mostly before I got my boat) and I have to say the list of guides who provided an educational experience is short. The list of average joes willing to take $300 and hand you a D&C rig and point at a redd and say "have at it" is ENDLESS!!! This is how many of us get our start. Kinda scary eh?
I think alot of people that fish alot begin to lose interest in Salmon fishing. At least when they(salmon) are in the river for a while. I know I have. I am about 1000X happier with a 5 Wt and a #12 globug during salmon season. I'll also take a nice pocket/dropback fish in the spring over a gravel fish anyday. But, there are people who will sit there on polished gravel for hours. That baffles me too. I guess what it all boils down to what are people's individual prioritys. Do you want to spend a quality day in a beautiful place and soak it all in and maybe swim a fish or two? OR do you want to get into fish..no matter what? If the answer is the later then maybe you should take a look at yourself. Do worry too much Hal. I can come up with a list of at least 10-15 other guys my age who feel the exact same way. Us young bucks won't give her up without a fight.

LR

PS As of last summer all boats must have a ranger station permit to float the PM during normal trout season dates. They are limited and usually the canoe liveries buy em all up.
01-04-2003 10:40 AM
pmflyfisher MJYP

Here you go based on my 23 years of fishing that blue ribbon rive which you know is my favorite.

1. Yes it is exhaustible and is much more used due to the many full time guides on the rivers every day of the year floating it plus the many walk in anglers due to the world wide press it has received the last 20 years.

2. Amazingly though its wild fish runs are still strong and the browns are coming back again since the no kill was put in a couple of years ago.

3. During the salmon and steelhead andramous runs night fishing should be banned. Other states have this rule such as Oregon. Lets be real, the majority of people I have seen fishing at night are lining or snagging the salmon and steelhead.

4. During the non andramous fish periods night fishing can resume on the entire river for the brown trout fisherman.

5. The number of drift boats per day on the river need to be limited all year.

6. The number of other boaters, canoes, raft, kayaks needs to be limited during the summer period. I have heard that there is a proposal for this on the PM that may go into effect this year.

7. Make the flys only no kill, also barbless hook in addition to the 1/2 inch hook size.

8. When the returns are low and the rivers are very low (like this year) the DNR should be monitoring and closing the PM and other rivers at times from all fishing. Particularly those with significant wild fish runs. We all know which rivers these are.

I think the only thing that is preserving the wild fish runs is that that over 60 miles of spawning tribs (Baldwin, Little South, and Main above M-37) are closed from 9/30 until the last saturday in April which protects a large number of spawning salmon and steelhead. I have went up there a couple of times during the closed season and there are a lot of them up there spawning in relative peace.

Also PM and michigan steelheaders in general have bought more into the C+R concept over the last 20 years. It is not just kill everything any more.

Been trying to decide where I would want my last fly fishing day on earth to be it would be either the Beaverkill or Pere Marquette, but I am leaning to the good old PM, as any one who has it fished a long time can attest.

Hopefully we can preserve for future generations but I am getting worried.


PM Out
01-04-2003 09:35 AM
removed_by_request
24x7 fishing

I read an interesting statement in the PNW section concerning 24x7 fishing on the PM.

Since it was brought up I figured you guys can offer some valuable insights.

My particular concern is for the PM, but you can apply this to other rivers as well.

The PM has a no kill flys only section, which happens to be where the best spawning gravel is. She also is an expendable resource, time will prove that.

Should 24x7 fishing be allowed there during the height of the runs? (I understand the hex hatch, night fishing for big browns which adds another wrinkle.)

If we allow 24x7 fishing in prime spawning areas when do these babies have time to do their thing?
Also how does this no kill 24x7 impact lower sections of the river?

I look forward to your responses.

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