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Great Lakes Steelhead & Salmon Amazing "Inland ocean" fisheries

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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-07-2002 12:51 AM
flytyer I can see it now. Prizes and points for who has the longest tube, who has the longest rod, who has the thinkest line, who has the most precise placement, ....... I best stop before I get in trouble with the wife.
11-06-2002 12:27 PM
"Spey Golf!" If we get the kinks worked out this

could turn into a new Olympic Sport. They've already got so pretty silly ones now; why not this?
11-06-2002 12:07 PM
pmflyfisher What creativeness "spey golf", I never thought of that one.

Guess we could throw Freds weighted tube flies.

11-06-2002 12:18 AM
flytyer Watersprite,

I suppose we could use the 11 weight 2-handers for the long frives, the 9 weights for the medium distance shots, and the 7 wieghts for the short shots. But the really short puts me thinks need to be done with a lieght line single-hander and a small dry fly.

I can see it now, the duffers at the local golf course staring and scratching their heads just befor they call the cops to come and arrest these nuts our here playing golf with fly rods and fishing flies for balls.


The blondes, redheads, and brunettes are optional depending on your own preferences. However, if they aren't playing 'spey golf" (Watersprite, I love that name) they musr remain in the galley and only cheer when their favorite spey golfer makes a particularly difficult shot ('er cast).
11-06-2002 12:08 AM
flytyer Lipripper,

Yes, I agree that the magazine editors have a huge role to play in this kiss and tell that we see masquerading as good, informative writing. I suspect that they do this because they think they must or they will lose readership and go out of print (er, business) There are a lot a mags on fly fishing these days. Some are not too bad, but they are not in the same league as the old Fly Fisherman of 25 or more years ago.

It has become a go here, fish with these flies, get this or that guide, at this time of year, and catch all these fish. Heck, even a newcomer to the sport can do this. All it takes is spending a little money for the right guide, the right flies, and the right rod and line. Of course, the flies and assorted other equipment needs to be purchased at "Chuck's Fly Fishing Emporium" because the owner lives right in the middle of the action and knows what works when. Besides, he is a "nice guy" who "just wants to share his bounty".

Once upon a time, the mags forcussed on the techniques or fly fishing and tying, the why it should be done this way, the insects being imitated for trout fishing, the fish itself, the resource, the comeraderie of fellow fishers, the history of the sport, and the ethics of fishing. I don't think it is too late to have this again. But this I know, if we who care about such things as a quality experience astream sit back and say nothing to the magazine editors, and the newbiew we meet astream, we are also to blame for what occurs.
11-05-2002 07:28 PM
watersprite What's this about spey golf? And where do the redheads fit in?

Hmm, I guess the grand spey's and xlt's will do fine for the long shots, but putting? I also guess you use grass leaders, huh?

Boy do we need the rain to get the fish moving...

11-05-2002 06:20 PM
Or ...... we could change this thread to "which do you prefer most, and why?"

To Blondes, Brunettes or Redheads.

You guys already know my answer!
11-05-2002 05:41 PM
pmflyfisher Yes your right. But I can do it alone in solitude most of the time and every one plays by the well documented Royal and Ancient Rules of golf (which includes ethics), there are on course compliance monitors (starters), and at the end I do not have to take off my waders and clean all of the fly fishing stuff out of the car after each trip.

There are some benefits to golf over fly fishing. Think of all the money I would save on not buying fly tying materials alone.

I think over the winter I will do a cost and benefit comparison between the two sports.

Skiing whats that, another one of my youth sports that I had to give up since I relocated to the great lakes 23 years ago. I bet you would not believe that I actually Heli skied in the Canadian Bugaboos in 1976, but I did.

Oh well let me know when the next hot thread starts on fishing ethics, technology threats, fishery conservation, legislation etc..

Guess I should just go tie some more new Otis Bugs

11-05-2002 04:10 PM
Hal, carefull on that golf game idea. Remember what

Winston Churchill said: "A game of golf is a good walk ruined."

And by time you add up a couple of "rounds," the greens fees, cart, balls, etc., 19th hole, etc., etc., it will (just like skiing) cost you more than a seasons fishing trips.

But, as some wag said about golf: 'where else can you dress like a pimp and be thought of as at the height of fashion?'
11-05-2002 03:51 PM
pmflyfisher Hope so, but I went to Borders today to see if any new fly fishing mags were of interest, and what to you know one of the national fly fishing magazines has another article on you know what blue ribbon Michigan river. (Hint: PMFLYFISHER) When and where to go etc, Do you know how many times it and the other blue ribbon trout and steelhead rivers have been written up ? I bet it is written about at least every spring and fall in one or more of the national magazines.

Why did they do it for $$$ , their own advertising and hope fully more fishing clients to guide, etc.....

Maybe I will try to seriously get the golf game together again.

11-05-2002 02:37 PM

Hopefully after today's election things will change a little on that front. God knows we needed to send a couple people packing.

11-05-2002 11:36 AM
pmflyfisher Yes agree with both of your points.

I was writing a response which was just summarizing all of the issues formerly stated and then I realized I could not propose a viable solution to fix the problems.

The only thing that comes to mind as a start is more state DNR resources assigned to enforce fishing laws, management of guides and angler education.. That would require more funding increased taxes and fishing/guide license fees, political actions and you know what that means.

Lets face it there are a heck of a lot of fishing laws now on the books in each state which are not enforced.

In 43 years of trout fishing I have been checked for my fishing license and proper tackle less than 5 times and twice was in the same day in British Columbia which left me impressed thinking they had their fishery enforcement resources and methods under control. However reading the posts on this board from the BC anglers and hearing the state of some of their blue ribbon fisheries makes me reconsider if even their they have their fishery management and enforcement actions under control.

I get depressed just thinking about the lack of controls on the fisheries. Most states appear to focus their scarce fishery resources on fish management such as the hatchery operations
11-05-2002 09:53 AM
River Pimps

I just plain sucks. I read another one a couple weeks ago...written by a guide. The fall steelhead fishing here has been less than steller and I would be less than happy if I were an out of stater that read the article in Flyfisherman and decided to make the trip. You guys are right. Limit the number of guide boats, also, raise the price of out-of-state fishing licenses. I think that a large portion of responsibility falls in the laps of the mag editors too. Yes, the guies do the write-ups, but, the editors know what the result will be and they should know better in many cases. My 2.

11-04-2002 09:25 PM
flytyer Pmflyfisher,

Unfortunately, you are correct about the information available today. Yes, Wullf, Brooks, and others wrote about fly fishing back in the 60's. However, the focussed on how and why not when and where. I remember reading Joe Brooks talking about fishing for Missori River brown trout in the fall. However, he never mentioned where on the Missouri he fished. He did talk about how to dress for cold weather, and what equipment to use and why.

After moving to Montana, I went exploring and found exactly where Brooks was fishing for the large fall browns on the MIssouri. It was an out-of-the-way spot that was not that difficult to get to if you were willing to do some exploring with a 4X4, or willing to walk thr river bank for about 2 miles through a narrow canyon. The fishing was wonderful until the Kokanee Salmon were released into the river from an up stream irrigation diversion dam. The Kokanee spawn ant the same time as the browns and were digging up the brown trout redds. This area is only a ghost of what it used to be. But I digress.

My point is that Joe Brooks never told the exact where or the exact when, neither did Wulff, etc. All Brooks said was fall brown trout fishing on the Missouri River in Montana. Charlie Brooks was the same with his articles and books on the Madison and other Yellowstone waters. Charlie Waterman did the same as well. This despite that Charlie lived in Monatan 6 months/year and new exact where and when on mny Montana waters.

Interestingly, Gary LaFontaine gave when and where except for his two favorite places, the upper Clark Fork River and upper Rock Creek. Waters that I spent many an ejoyable evening or morning on, including having Gary come by and chat before or after fishing. He also never spoke about Flint Creek where I would also run into him at times. However, Gary wrote a lot about the Bighole river and the Missouri River, he claimed is was needed to "preserve" the fishery. Gary guided on both these rivers and had a guide friend in Helena, MT who guided on each of them. Guess who he mentioned in his articles about these two rivers?

I liked Gary and he was a very generous and honest man. However, I wished he would never had publicised the Missouri and Bighole Rivers.

Wulff would say he fished the Yellowstone River, Schiebert would say he fished the Madison river or Firehole River. They never said where they fished them or exactly what time of year.

I sure would like to see some of the same restraint practiced today by the fly fishing scribes. And, like you, I think that part of the answer would be to have state fisheries department limit the number of guides that could work a river, or stretch of river.
11-03-2002 09:53 AM
pmflyfisher Flytyer

I agree with you but with the pervasive instant information age we are in now through the internet, cell phones, PDAs, etc. it appears it will not be stopping. In the 60s and 70s we waited for the monthly issues of Outdoor Life, Field & Stream, or Sports Afielt for Ted True Blood, Joe Brooks, or Charles Waterman, Lee Wulff article on may be one national blue ribbon fishery and only during the spring and summer fishing seasons. Now you go on the internet find what you want and the national outdoor and specialized fly fishing books and magazines are even more pervasive than the 60s and 70s. The proliferation of the media and the commercialization of previous recreational fisheries by professional guides since the 70s has really hurt most of our fisheries. I can remember in the 60s when there were no guides, and then in the 70s wondered why an angeler would need a crutch to hire a guide since that cuts their own individual learning curve and to me a big part of the challenge of the sport.

I have not hired a guide yet, probably should have when I first moved to the great lakes region in 1979 would have expedited my conversion from trout to steelhead and salmon fly fishing. But it was a great challenge and fun to got thorugh the conversion and succeed on my own.

Now rivers I never saw guides or drift boats in the 70s and early 80s have a constant stream of 30-40 drift boats with professional guides with their clients during the peak runs. If any one can tell me how they think that type of increased fishing pressure is good for the rivers and fishs I would like to hear it.

Maybe a solution is to limit the number of guides on any one river on any given day. Maybe that would help ? Some smaller rivers should have no drift boats on them period. To my knowledge there are only a few rivers in the U.S. with these types of rules.


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