|04-19-2002 03:09 PM|
Dutchman -- thanks for explaining about the squawfish/northern pike minnow. Obviously, I assumed you were referring to a fly that looked like a pike. My mistake! What's that they say about the word "assume" :hehe:
|04-19-2002 11:16 AM|
Man, am I skating on this one
And on that note:
1. Think of this: if Mepps made Aglia trolling lures in such obnoxious colors and sizes as to match forage and NOT aggravate - there'd be no point. I mean to say if ANYTHING in the forage world remotely looks the same as a yellow google eyed lead head, red thread tied on white over bright green bucktail with a gold willow spinner spoon, I want to see it.
2. Someone direct me to Colin's book. I know I can find it on BN.com, etc.
3. Someone else expect those flies to be posted TOMORROW???:eyecrazy: (burning candles at too many ends or just getting old and tired - I can't figure out which )
|04-19-2002 10:43 AM|
I also have to agree with Dave, especially his assertion that the fly does not necessarily have to imitate the primary forage of the water that's being fished. The most successful pike flies are not always those that represent the natural baitfish accurately; rather, they are attractor flies that prey upon the pike's predatory instincts to feed upon the weak, vulnerable, and obvious.
Come to think of it, the number of attractor patterns in my pike box outnumber the natural imitators by about five to one.
|04-19-2002 09:13 AM|
I agree with you that Colin Kageyama's book is good read. I've read it a couple of times and come away with new thoughts each time I read it. The color plates are worth the price of the book alone. One of these days I'd like to replicate some of his pictures in the tea colored water that is common in the northeast, and take a few of surface flies from the fishes view.
|04-19-2002 04:58 AM|
Hi Quentin. Nice to hear from you.Once again I have failed to express myself very well. We have A nuisence fish out here that untill recently was called a Squawfish. The new name for it now is Northern Pike minnow. I have no idea where they came up with that name. Just as an aside.this fish is such A problem there is A bounty on these guys. through out the entire Columbia river system. the colors would be brown gold and A dark tan. I don't know if you have these guys where you are or not. I have A fly that I have tied that is A Carry Stevens Pike pattern that I did from a written recipe. I have seen some pictures of her flys and they are beautiful. The one I tried to do is not.
Because I am A ranke amature here I am trying to stick to what has proven effective for those of you wo have been fishing these guys for some time. Again thank all of you who graciously contributed here. I am intrigued with Daves thoughts on color materials and material placement. I am currently reading a book called What fish See by Colin Kageyama. Has any one read it yet. It is A great read. He is A optometrist and rabid steelheader. He talks about the physiology of the fish ; how why and when they see what the seeThen he talks a lot about color shifts due to distance ,depth and clearity. I am looking foreward to playing with some of this stuff. Dave I think you will really enjoy it. In all of my fishing my favorite fly is the one with the fish firmly attached
|04-18-2002 10:20 AM|
This marabou/hackle thing I'm doing measures between 6 and 8" max. The gape of the hook is somewhere in between 1/2" and 5/8" inclusive, if memory serves...it may be a bit wider.
I respectfully submit this idea: If a narrow gap, long shank streamer hook is used, how wide is the gap; where would the material tie-in begin or end, and where does the fisherman expect the fly to be attacked. I agree with Pete about lip or corner hooking, because these things tend to attack from oblique angles and then quickly turn away and toward the hiding place (my experience).
Here's a different way to ask the same thing.
1. Where would anyone of us position our materials, thus establishing the hook position for attack.
2. How much gape do we LIKE, visually, on a bare hook.
3. How much stuff are we tying in; how much gape are we eliminating with stuff.
Quentin, my answer to what patterns would someone tie for these guys is anything large enough to do the job, forage related or not, from old style streamer patterns right up to all the super flashy, super colorful salt patterns. If a Tarpon will grab something green, purple and yellow, a pike or muskie should be expected to grab a pink, orange or turquoise something or other...
By the way, this is all just mental gymnastics for me, and no measure of this is intended to start any flamefests or challenge anyone's intelligence. I'd love to tie up some outrageous color combinations and throw them at these guys.
|04-18-2002 08:02 AM|
BTW, on two separate occasions I witnessed a larger pickerel attack a smaller pickerel that came unhooked right at shore. In both cases, the small pickerel sat motionless immediately after coming unhooked (the way they often do) and while it was sitting there the larger pickerel charged it, grabbed it by the middle of the body and backed out into deeper water to try to swallow its meal. I don't know if the feeding attempts were successful because the "food" wasn't much smaller than the attacker (about 2/3 the length). I have also caught a couple of scarred fish from pike-infested waters and the teeth marks were on the middle of the body. I'm not sure how much the feeding behavior of larger pike and tiger muskies differs from that of their smaller relatives, but these fish seem to target the area just behind the gills when attacking their prey. Perhaps that explains why FrenchCreek had better success with lip hooking the fish when using shorter shanked hooks, and tended to hook the fish deeper when using longer shanked hooks? This is just a guess based upon my observations and somewhat limited experience with catching pike and tiger muskies (I haven't caught any over 10# yet).
|04-18-2002 06:53 AM|
Regarding my hook selection. My reasoning for going to the 10xl is that last year when I was checking out this particular fishery,I had Achance to talk with the state fishery biologist who has been incharge of this project for about ten or twelve years. Tiger Musky were introduced to this res. to control the N. Pike Minnow/Squawfish. When they started the average size (squa.) was fourteen inches. they had just shocked the lake recently and the average size was nine inches. Now my thinking(yes I do that,just not very often) is, at least one of my patterns should should come close to that. Particularly in light of the fact they only eat once A day and like big baits. Is my understanding close here. Go ahead let me have it. I'm tough. The biologist show me what was left of one of those articulated plugs. Idon't know just how big it was origonaly but the front half was about three inches I guess. I couldn't tell for sure because when the fish hit it he took the whole back half off above the eye that held the two halves together. that plug was CRUSHED! I have been salivating all over mysef Just waiting for A chance at these guys. After reviewing this post, I may have to stop doing this at 4:00 a.m. Thaks again
|04-17-2002 11:30 AM|
regarding concern about hook length
When I said long shank, I didn't mean anything with a very extended length. This hook I described is 4X long, which isn't very much longer than a standard shank. If you have any Mustad 34007 in 1/0 or 2/0 (stainless) to compare against 34011, then you have an approximate comparison of what I'm describing in a Varivas 990S Salt versus 994S Salt.
Here is another mental picture: These hooks nestle very nicely inside a 35mm film canister with a little distance left to the cap.
Pete: the bouface I'm tying is tied about halfway back, leaving shank wound withthread, similar to a tarpon tie.
|04-17-2002 04:17 AM|
Wow guys this has been great !!! For someone who knows nothing about fishing for Tiger Musky,this has been great
I'm tying my Berry's Pike fly on A3/0 tiemco 811s. That is A stainless ring eye with A9/16 hook gap. Sounds like I really don't need to bend the point out. I also tied some Perch and Northern Pike minnow patterns on A Partridge hook called A Carrie Stevens. It is A 2/0 ten extra long streamer hook. It is three inches from the eye to the bend. It is A great lookig iron. I know she would be pleased. But now I am conserned over the remark about long hooks. I guess that is one of the things I'll have to sort out. Thank you everyone for your input.
|04-16-2002 07:21 PM|
I do a fair amount of pike fishing (flies) and on occasion, when I get back East, some muskie fishing(flies also). All of my flies are "flat". I use the Gamakatsu hooks (its the straight eye - with an semi open eye style ?? the correct name escapes me) because of their short shank, needle point and wide gap. Since these critters really attack a fly at the head, I find I get more and shallower hook ups, very seldom down deep, mostly on the jaw or lips. I tried long shank hooks and lost many more fish and had many more "deep throat" situations.
I have never tried the offset hooks but I do think this is a very informative topic and for all who are concerned with C&R, one that shoud get more "exploration". This forum can be the source of much experience on this topic, not only for pike & muskie, but for all species.
If anyone else out there has an opinion & experience on Flat Vs. Offsett, please share it with the rest of us.
In all of my tying years, hook selection has been one of the most crucial decision to a successfull pattern. AND I have changed hook selection to increase the ease of release with the result often being more "long releases" but overall more satisfaction and challenge in targeting a particular fish with a specific hook style that I know is more risky to me, but not to by fishy friends.
|04-16-2002 03:32 PM|
Thank You. Now I understand more clearly.
Targeting these aggressive species suggests strong wire hooks, yet doesn't require an offset in the hook profile. No, I do not mean to imply every hookset will result in potentailly fatal damage; it is my mistake that I presumed the question to be oriented toward bait, more so than artificials or flies.
I am in the process of tying a few pike flies. These are Marabou headed, with several hackle and schlappen body profile feathers, and some assorted flash. I am tying them on a 2/0 long-shank stainless, saltwater hook made by Varivas. This hook is standard flat profile, no offset, and has a rather wide gape between point and hook shank. The hook is in proportion to the materials size, and I expect it to hook if taken, based on the gape.
The general presumption is that an offset profile hook is used with bait, and intended to hook fish for the table. I'd love to be out pike fishing, too - hope you have good luck.
[EDIT] John, you beat me by minutes. I hadn't had a chance to read over between sessions. I didn't mean to cause the gentleman any concern, as noted above.
It is my question as to why use a j-style hook, with an offset, when a wider gape - essentially creating more to 'bite' on, accomplishes the same purpose, and the fish then almost hooks itself in it's mad thrash to tear the bait from the water. Remember, we're talking about a targeted species in this scenario. These babies aren't noted for being civilized.
Circle hooks are, in general, a flat-profile hook. Different manufacturers may say "circle" and have consumers think all hooks are created equal; it's far from the case. A flat profile circle hook will generally slide up from the gullet without catching on the way up. With any type of offset hook, the hook will turn.
As always, this is just personal observation and opinion.
|04-16-2002 03:17 PM|
I think that we've discussed the offset hook causing mortality on circle hooks. To recap for Dutchman, when bait fishing on circle hooks an offset point can cut the fish's gullet when the hook is pulled from the stomach and set in the jaw. From my memory I don't think we've ever discussed the mortality or or the hooking effectiveness of offset J hooks.
I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time my memory was bad.
|04-16-2002 02:52 PM|
I did not take exception to your question. But I do really appreciate your concern in that regard. Thank you.
Now to the question. My intent is purely catch and release. From the responses to the thread,I keep getting the feeling that I am not expressing myself very well. I have never caught A Tiger Musky and wanted to know if I push the point out to one side a little would it improve my hook up ratio or is it even necessary. My understanding from your resonce is this will lead to fatal ingestion is that correct. They look to be magnificent fish and I would never do that just to improve my catch if it meant A potential fatality. I just don't see how that would happen. can you please help me understand this more clearly. As you can probably see I am one of those people who needs all the help he can get. Just for clearity I am fishing flys and not bait. Again i don't know if that makes A difference. I am really looking to your responce.
|04-16-2002 12:29 PM|
Is the intent to catch and release or provide a meal?
We've seen the discussions of offset versus straight pull hooks several times. Offset certainly swings the balance in favor of hookset, yet presents problems a la potentially swallowed baits. No flame intention meant; just asking.
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