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Thread: Fluoro untying? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-23-2007 03:34 PM
Galong Wow Burk, what an awesome fish! Thanks for the pic. That's a dream fish for me. I'd love to catch even a much smaller one.
09-23-2007 12:33 PM
burk I've been using Seagar flouro for tippets on Salmon and Steelhead in the Great Lakes for a few years now and have had zero knot failures. I use cinch knots, but I use a small swivel, as I get tiered of tying blood knots for leaders in January in MI. I agree that abrasion resistance is an issue, and I do check my line after each hook up. The one thing I disagree on is lubricating the knot. Knots slip because they aren't pulled tight, also Flouro Carbon is very abrasive when dry. Lubricating your knots keeps it from cutting into itself and allows you to pull the knot TIGHT. A dry pull will cut into the line as it's pulled and won't cinch up as tight. I rarely leave much tag end, tie conventional cinch knots because they're fast, and I don't loose fish because of bad knots.
This was last Wed. on a 8 lb leader with a Spey rod under an indicator.[IMG][/IMG]
09-07-2007 07:49 AM
Vince I have no problems with a clinch knot and flouro, both in salt and fresh. I moisten it, and pull it tight slowly, and then put pretty good pressure on it to tighten it down. No sharp tugging pressure, but a slow steady pressure. I believe as Chromedome said, it all about tying it properly.

If you read Chico Fernandez's book Fly Fishing for Bonefish, when not using a loop to attach the fly, he uses an 7 or 8 turn clinch knot, and he has tested it against an improved clinch and with 8 turns it came out stronger. A simple clinch knot is all you need if tied properly. He says an 8 turn clinch tests at 99-100%.
09-06-2007 07:41 PM
mikez Don't know why I'm obsessing over this...
Back out in albie land today, after landing one hard pulling long running football, purposly neglected to retie. Wanted to see how many fish I could get on the one clinch knot [I normally retie frequently].
Number two, after several long hard runs, wrapped me around the dreaded lobster bouy. Next followed the tug o' war as I tried to free the fish from the pot line while it made runs against the rope with maybe four feet of leader. The runs were hard enough to pull the bouy under. Somehow the fish came free and I landed it.
Same exact scenario with number three except try as I might, I could not free the fish from the damn bouy. After seriously considering swimming for it [it was down too deep on the rope], I had no choice but to pull until the leader broke. The blood knot between mono and flouro held and the tippet broke close to the fly. Although I don't know for sure if the clinch knot broke, the end of the tippet was frayed for about three inches. I believe it was abrasion and not the knot which broke.
Flouro was again the Vanish brand @ 12#, improved clinch, six turns.
Not sure what I proved but I believe I got this out of my system.
Now if somebody would just invent an invisible tippet material that could cut through rope, I'd have it made.
09-06-2007 01:18 AM
chromedome Is it possible that while the clinch or improved clinch is one of the simplest knot to learn to tie, it is also one that is prone to inconsistencies in the tying process? I'm not sure if that expresses it exactly as I mean to, but maybe there are subtle aspects one has to pay attention to in tying the knot to get it to come out the same each time. Things like getting exactly the same number of turns before turning in the tag end, or how much one pulls on the tag end at the completion of the knot, can make a difference. I really didn't think about this till I started using the Orvis knot. Even tho the Orvis knot is somewhat harder to learn to tie, compared to the clinch knots I don't think there is as much chance for variation in tying it from one knot to the next providing you stick to the basic procedure for tying the knot.
09-04-2007 07:33 PM
mikez
Quote:
Originally Posted by petevicar
I then worked out that a clinch knot is a very bad knot for fluro.
Pete
It's strange that we could have such divergent points of view about something that is not subjective. Either the knots fail, or they don't right?
For whatever reason, mine don't. I'm not being argumentitive, it's not important to me what knot someone else uses. I'm just curious why my experiences don't match what I've heard elsewhere.
Yesterday morning I hooked this false albacore from a popular, crowded jetty. The fish ran along the jetty in front of several surf casters. At least four of them hooked my line and preceded to "set the hook" when they felt the tension of my line causing very severe jerks on the leader. The fish also ran around a lobster bouy line and pulled the bouy almost under. I had no hope of landing the fish and expected the line to part at any moment. Somehow I disentangled from the other lines and the fish freed itself from ther pot warp. I then horsed the fish in before it got in any more trouble. I considered that to be about the most punishment I could inflict on my terminal tackle without outright breaking the leader itself. The flouro I used is the Vanish line by Berkely. The knot was an improved clinch with six turns. A blood knot was used to attach flouro to mono. According to conventional wisdom, I should have never landed that fish To me it was a normal day.
09-03-2007 04:11 PM
chromedome I suspect Juro is right about the high strength of the palomar knot. However, I don't use it since in my hands at least, it uses up too much tippet. I ran a few tests in 2006 convincing me to give the orvis knot a try. It is now my knot of choice with tippets ranging from 2X thru 0X for the steelies I target. I also prefer the orvis leader to tippet knot over the surgeons knot although its a tad harder to tie.
09-02-2007 09:11 AM
petevicar When I first used fluoro, when bonefishing, I was continuously loosing flies. I then worked out that a clinch knot is a very bad knot for fluro.
I now tie my flies on with a uni knot and have no problems.

Pete
09-01-2007 12:54 PM
teflon_jones I regularly use 7x tippet with an improved clinch knot (for almost 20 years now) and rarely have it come untied. Frog Hair is my normal tippet too. If it does come untied, it's usually because I haven't done enough twists or because I didn't check the knot after I landed the last fish or pulled the fly off of a snag...
09-01-2007 10:17 AM
mikez Just to add my unsolicited $0.02...
I dislike flouro in general because of abrasion sensitivity - you have to frequently run it between your fingers and aggressively cut and replace any rough patches. This becomes a chore when fishing rough terrain such as jetties, rock piles etc.
For that reason I have limited my use of flouro to times when I am targeting line shy tunoids, most often false albacore.
Having said that, I find it strange that I have never run into the knot problems that so many attribute to flouro. I have had flyshop dudes tell me flat out "You CAN NOT" use blood knots, clinch knots etc. Never being one to listen to the voice of authority, I ignored them and stick to the knots I learned when I was 10.
I ONLY use blood knots to attach flouro tippet to mono leader and I only use improved clinch to attach flies. Now before I go on, let me just clarify that this choice is more personal preference and not meant to endorse specific knots. Your milage will almost certainly vary.
Nevertheless, I have hooked dozens of fast moving tunoids and landed a fair percentage of those and NEVER ONCE has either a blood knot or clinch knot in flouro failed me. This is saying alot as I fish mostly from shore and use mostly 12 lb tippet. That makes for a prolonged tug o' war with lots of extreme exceleration. In other words, a really good test for the knots.
On those few occasions when I break one off, invariably it is either an abraded patch in the flouro or a wind knot.
As someone else mentioned, tying technique is critical. A poorly tied knot will fail first, no matter what kind it is.
08-24-2007 08:27 AM
South Shore
Quote:
Originally Posted by chromedome
A knowledgeable clerk in the local fly shop told me there are special concerns with knots using frogs hair and that they recommend certain knots that could likely differ from what a person is used to.
Local flyshop here says the Frog Hair is unique in that it will stretch a bit, unlike most fluoro. I don't know enough to discount this either way, but he said he uses it for most of his fishing and hasn't had any problems with an Improved Clinch.

Anyway, I got a couple smallish schoolies this last weekend in a creek on Cape Cod with a 2X leader (largest was only about 16-17"). Put some pretty heavy pressure on the larger of them and no problems so far. Just making sure I'm using a proper half-dozen turns and leaving about 3mm on the tag end.
08-22-2007 10:35 AM
geardaddy37 thanks for the knot reference...I know what I tie, but don't know what it is called, so now I can actually reference what you guys are saying!
Bill
08-22-2007 02:45 AM
Galong I found a diagram of the Pitzen Knot at http://www.fintalk.com/fishing-knots/pitzen-knot.html

Thanks guys... I learned something today. Now I need to rest my brain.
08-22-2007 12:20 AM
chromedome A knowledgeable clerk in the local fly shop told me there are special concerns with knots using frogs hair and that they recommend certain knots that could likely differ from what a person is used to.
08-19-2007 04:16 PM
Nooksack Mac
Where less is more

I read that the factories have analyzed knot performance with micro-photography, as well as carefully controlled and measured comparison tests. An important discovery was that knots that fail prematurely usually slip internally before they come apart; hence the pigtail curls. Knot choice is important, and there are several that produce tippet-to-hook connections of above 90%. I like the double-loop cinch and the Pitzen (Pitzer?) knots.

But the problem with tying any knot is a matter of technique: you've got to get ALL the slack out of your knot in order to achieve optimum strength. After tying on a fly, have you ever pulled on the tag end with your teeth or pliers? The tag end got longer, didn't it? I don't think that's stretching; rather, it's the result of pulling slack out of the knot. And that makes it as strong as it can be. You can pull on it until it breaks (at that knot's maximum strength), but it won't slip.

About wraps: Most knots are devices designed to create friction, so much friction that the knot can't pull loose. The more wraps, the more friction. But there's a point of diminishing returns, when too many wraps creates so much friction that the knot can't be pulled tight. Try, as an experiment, tying a cinch-style knot with 10-12 wraps. You can't pull it tight, right? Tie it again with fewer wraps until you find the optimum number that allows you to pull it tight. Heavy tippet, and tippet tied with stiff mono, and some fleurocarbon, requires fewer wraps for an optimum cinch knot than 7X tippet.
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