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Art of Casting Analysis, refinement of the cast

Thread: Line Info for Atlantis Surf-tamer: Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-10-2005 05:48 AM
juro Awesome, that is exactly what I wanted to hear jazzman, thanks.

A few years ago I approached most of the big line makers for this type of line, and at that time the market didn't seem like it would justify it. Thankfully Nobuo supported my ideas in the rod design, and the rod worked out great with shooting heads but we still wanted an integrated line out-of-the-box solution.

First Tim Rajeff saw that indeed such a line was needed and got the wheels turning, Doug Cummings over at Wulff provided a lot of support with his TT tarpon and Bermuda Triangle lines which are excellent, and now Simon's incredible new Outbound line will hit the streets soon.

I had the chance to cast the new RIO 'Outbound' 12wt intermediate yesterday

A M A Z I N G . . .

So I'm up to my eyeballs in tax forms and the like, and a box that came from Simon is drawing my attention like a sunny day does to a kid in school thru the classroom window...

Finally, I couldn't take it anymore so I put the Atlantis 1111A Surf-tamer together and tied a leader on the new Rio 12wt "Outbound" integral shooting head lines designed for two-handed casting.

I was too lazy to put it on a reel at first, so laid the coils on the grass after threading the clear intermediate head through the guides. With a quick flip, backcast and ZOOM! Out went the whole line and the running line out the tip top - I had to go fetch the line and thread it back through, laughing out loud.

I was going to tie it to my belt loop but after tuning into the line a little bit it was zinging out with such velocity that I thought it might yank my trousers off!

The head has the grains, taper and a certain rigidity that makes it hold it's form over the full casting distance like nothing I've ever cast on the Atlantis before. The running line is very thin and shoots like mad and the super-bright green color helps a lot with visual queues contrasting against the clear head section. This is a line that makes 120ft (the length of the line) absolutely easy to reach with a practice cast or two. It seems the more relaxed you cast it, the further it goes!


Realistically, it's a tad heavy for the rod for my tastes (type A) but wouldn't be heavy for everyone (type B). I would like to try the 11wt since I like a lighter line to let me feel the line in motion to create the energy a little more than the grain weight.

Side note: I have been practicing underloaded casting quite a bit lately to refine my casting stroke, try it - you'll be amazed at how much it reveals! For instance, I will put an 8wt floating FWF on the 1109 and work to throw the entire line to the backing. It's not easy, and it took me a while as the 1109 can take an 11wt in a pinch and is not loaded with an 8wt standard WF. In such cases, it achieves the feat by means of kinetic energy and nearly insufficient grains. Then put a properly weighted line back on and ZOOM!

Back to the Outbound...

The running line is a floater, and sometimes an intermediate cuts through an angry surf a little bit easier. It's color and shootability is great, provided it sits in the stripping basket faithfully between the easy moonshots. The running line's ability to sit in the basket despite oceanic winds is among the most important features of a beach line. Tangling must not be prevalent either, but that is also a factor of basket design.

120ft is so easy to reach with this line that I wonder if the line shouldn't be a little longer.

As a quick test before getting back to my duties, I put a chunk of a paper napkin that was in my truck in lieu of a big fly and it threw this big wind-resistant gob of paper over 100ft with just a flick. The thing was louder than a hummingbord flying by but it was no match for the Outbound! This is going to be fun with bunker flies when the big girls are in the surf

There is something really special about the head design on this intermediate line that addresses the #1 problem with most lines on the market today for two-handed casting - this clear intermediate head does not lose it's loop over the extreme distance casting that the two-handed rod allows.

Simon, Jim, I am truly excited about what you have done - simply an AMAZING line! I will contact you about trying the other lines. To complete this test I really need to try the 11wt rated lines, and I also would like to try the 9wt and 10wt versions on the 1109.
04-09-2005 06:48 PM
Jazzman In case Simon doesn't answer, I think I heard that they're making it in the full range of sizes, so I'm sure there's a 9 and 10. Might be just the ticket for the lighter Atlantis.
04-09-2005 12:30 AM
juro Simon -

What line weights do these new lines come in? I am still in search of the line that will make the lighter Atlantis (9/10) sing as well, and the configurations you mention sound just perfect for the angling application.

Meanwhile, I hope to get the 12wt prototypes onto the water ASAP!
04-02-2005 10:53 AM
SSPey The T&T HS 1107 may work where 9/10 rods are too much. It was marketed as a fast action 7 wt single hander and likes 8 wt lines. It's not the same blank as their DH 1107 spey, although T&T did also build and sell it without fanfare as a 2 hander. Apparently all you had to do was think enough to ask, and T&T would readily accomodate requests to customize the build.
04-02-2005 06:55 AM
juro I will definitely have the rod at GGACC.

I think you'll be surprised at how light it is, keeping in mind that an AFTMA 9/10wt is well within the Spey 7wt range (new ratings not withstanding). In fact it loads perfectly with the 6/7/8 Windcutter with the mid-section removed. I have had a blast with every 'schoolie' I've hooked on the All-arounder and it did a fine job with 20# fish as well.

I like standard 9wt and 10wt lines on it while fishing the flats but switch over to a shooting head on the beach and let 'er rip over the waves. A simple spool swap is all it takes to convert from a finesse rod to a beach rod. I've used the 26ft integrated shooting head lines (Rio Striper DC, Cortland QD, Teeny, etc) and they load the rod well at 350 grains but those shorties can't keep the loop intact as far as the rod will throw the line (to your earlier point) so I have been using 35-45 ft shooting heads to comfortably throw 120ft all day, the less effort the better it flies.

On a related note - I am especially curious to check a report I got from a respected friend and mentor in Seattle saying that the new Rio Skagit 7/8 is a perfect match letting him perry poke 100+ ft with ease with a sinktip. Being an 11ft rod with that kind of ability gets me very excited about the possibilities as I am often feeling like the rod in hand on a given day is too long when I get into very tight situations. Just might be another dimension to support the "All-arounder" title.

Looking forward to hangin' out with the gang.
04-02-2005 06:26 AM
Moose Juro, are you going to be bringing the 9/10 to the SF Speyorama? I'd be very interested in trying that rod out.

I love the atlantis, but it is really overkill for the river fishing here, I intend to use it mainly in the surf where it will be perfect for the big schools that prowl the beaches in summer. I would like a similar rod to cast to stripers in the river. Most single handers here are using 7 and 8 weights to cast to fish that are a mix of 20 to 25 inch schoolies to fish nearing 10 pounds. The brutes over 10 pounds are few and far between. The 9/10 might be great for that, and I'd even like to see a 2 hander in the 7/8 range. I believe board member SSPey is building a 2 handed 11 foot 7 weight on a T&T blank. A rod like that would be a sweet river stick!
04-01-2005 07:46 PM
juro On a related note I have heard from very reliable sources in the PNW that the "Atlantis 9/10wt is a perfect match with the Rio Skagit 7/8wt permitting easy Skagit casts to 100ft". I have yet to test this combination out myself and don't want to put the cart before the horse but based on the reliability of the source I will be all over it as soon as I can get these two together.
04-01-2005 07:16 PM
Moose Juro, your idea of a long, stout leader is very plausible, that and using a big fly should both lengthen the energy transfer path and deaden the overkill on energy exiting the end of the line. I will play with this (and poly leaders) over the weekend.

Simon, very glad to hear you are working on the 2 hander salt lines. I think this will end up being a very practical method of fishing not only beaches and flats, but rivers and delta waters with the proper rod weights. Hope to see these rods scale down to 7 weights eventually for river striper fishing. Also looking forward to the new video with this type of casting being covered.
04-01-2005 03:50 PM
Speybro Jonnnny!

Hey man. Floating and intermediate have floating running line, the type 3, type 6 and type 8 heads have intermediate running lines.

I told Jimmy about your post and he just said "keep tying!!!".

04-01-2005 03:10 PM
Hey Simon

Simon --

John H. mentioned that line to me, but I didn't realize it would be made with enough grainage to load the double-handers. Yahoo! What densities will you guys make it in -- floating, intermediate, sinking -- and will the running line be floating or int.?

(P.S. -- Isn't Jim supposed to be resting his gimpy foot for our Bahamas trip .... and he's got me tying all the flies because he's supposed to be resting ....)

Jonny from NYC
04-01-2005 02:50 PM


thanks Simon!
04-01-2005 02:39 PM
Speybro Just thought you fellas would like to know that Rio has its own integrated shooting head that is being field tested now. There are a couple on the way to Juro to play with. No doubt he will give the board some honest feedback about it.

It's going to be available in early summer and is called the "Outbound". You'll see a series of ads for it soon enough! The #12 should be ideal on the Atlantis. It has a 37.5 ft long head, weighing around 550 grains and a total length of 120 ft. The taper gives it a very smooth casting loop, yet easily carries the biggest striper flies. Funnily enough Jim and I were casting it this morning and had on one of those very large Striper Dragon's flies on. Extreme distance was easy.....

Enjoy it Juro........
04-01-2005 07:46 AM
juro Moose -

Well said. If you haven't already, you should forward your comments to Airflo.

A little background:

After trying the shorter head prototype, I found that putting a large (e.g. very large) wind-resistant fly on the line and relaxing the stroke threw the line very well and for a long way without running out of runway, but not all situations call for that approach.

(This makes me wonder if tying a l-o-n-g leader of very stout butt down to 20# tippet (commonly used on the beach) would tame the turnover and create the opportunity for more integration of monofilament into the line loop.)

Anyway when I put a more commonly used 6" saltwater fly and gave it any kind of stroke acceleration to overcome wind (a constant on the beach) the short head ran out of room per recent discussion. I provided feedback consistent with your findings to Airflo.

Airflo quickly responded with the longer head length per the description we see in their catalogs. I have not received my longer head samples yet either but having a lot of experience with Airflo multihead 35ft and 45ft heads I am completely confident that they will totally rock when such a head with the right grain load is fused with that killer running line. I heard they are supposed to be available in April; I'll check with Tim. This is good timing as the striper fishing on the atlantic gets really cooking in mid-May.

BTW - Tim also commented that they are coming out with a thinner version of that running line which I would really like to try. The one on the "beach line" sits in the stripping basket like a faithful bird dog but I am always looking for a shooting line edge, if the thinner one also lays well in the basket then it's the best of both worlds. And talk about low stretch!

So in summary my feedback was consistent with yours. A longer head length was the eventual design decision from Airflo (per the catalog).

Side note: I believe the holy grail would be a short head that does not run out of runway over 120+ft of distance because:

- it strips closer to the beach
- rolls out easier
- less susceptible to high dunes and beach grass (obstructions)
- supports sight fishing better
- defeats wind easier

I wish science would prove that it's possible to design a short head that could hold a loop for 100, 120 even approaching 150ft casts. However I think the laws of physics are the limiting factor not taper design.

I will post here as soon as I can get samples of the longer head lines.
04-01-2005 07:01 AM
Moose The demo line I have came via Red Shed, and Mike had called Rajeff's the day I asked him about the line (a week ago) and they sent it to him, brand new, clearly never used before I got it. Clear intermediate head, 29' 6" 552 grains. The construction and materials are top notch and yes, I love the running line, but the head length issue needs to be resolved. I think 35' would be a minimum, and if they wanted to style it specifically for the Atlantis like they advertise, it should be a 40 foot head to allow for the extreme distances the rod is designed for. Airflo lines are my absolute favorite for both single and double handed rods because of the tapers and slick line construction, but they have really had some issues recently with quality control over things like head lengths not meeting advertised specs and loop to loop connections that hinder a smooth energy transfer.

So close, yet so far!!

I hope they can resolve this, because they are closer than any other line manufacturer to having the ultimate off the shelf fly lines, IMHO.
04-01-2005 06:40 AM
jfbasser The 40 has to do with years of same old and not head length.....I am currently thinking of joining in with Fred A and marketing some 40+ scotch to go with the line

Below is from from Airflo;

Recent fly rod design and materials have revolutionised fly rod performance and changed the way we cast.

Yet as a line manufacturer, the line rating system that we must adhere to was created over 40 years ago when many people still used rods built from cane or fiberglass.

Airflo realized that to maximize your true potential with modern fly rods, the flyline design had to be radically upgraded - welcome to the new Forty Plus line.

Ask almost any flyfisher what cast they would like help with and they will tell you it is the distance
cast. By taking the advantages of a shooting head and blending them into an advanced weight forward design, we have created a distance casting flyline for everyone.
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